Todd and Beth Guckenberger are the founders and Co-Executive Directors of Back2Back Ministries, a non-profit organization that cares for orphaned and vulnerable children in poverty.
The Guckenbergers launched Back2Back Ministries twenty years ago when they left the United States for Monterrey, Mexico. Today, their staff has grown to include more than 180 people and has hosted over 20,000 mission trip guests to date. Their reach now spans the globe with impactful ministries in Mexico, Africa, India, and Haiti.
Visit their website at back2back.org
Ray: Hello, everyone. This is Ray Hilbert here at Bottom Line Faith, and I am on the road in Mason, Ohio, today. I am in the world headquarters of Back2Back Ministries in Mason, Ohio, and my guest today is Todd and Beth Guckenberger, and they are the founders of Back2Back. And folks, buckle up, because this is going to be one of the most incredible stories of leadership and faith and making a difference that you’ve heard. So let’s get started. Good morning, Todd.
Todd: Good morning.
Ray: How are you?
Todd: Good. Thanks for having us.
Ray: And Beth, How are you this morning?
Beth: I’m doing good this morning. Thanks.
Ray: Okay, so who’s going to tell the story of Back2Back? I’m sure you’ve only told this once or twice in the last 20 some years, but what exactly do you do here at Back2Back and how’d you get started?
Beth: Well, how it got started is, gosh, I wish I could say we had a great big strategic plan. But the truth of the matter is, we had been exposed to orphans through Crusade, Campus Crusade for Christ. And it made an impression on us. So after we graduated from college, and we were teachers and had the summers free, we took local high school students on mission trips to Mexico. And in the summer of 1996, we were painting this wall around a church in Mexico that we were partnering with, from blue to green, and I’m pretty sure the year before we’d painted it from green to blue. There was something between the two of us that just knew that there was more going on in that city than we were engaging in. And I was complaining about the paint project, and Todd finally looked over at me at one point and said, “Do you think there are any orphanages in this city?”
And I had no idea, but I was looking to get out of that paint project. So – we don’t miss this detail – we left the students we had brought in the hands of very capable adults and then we jumped into a taxi cab, and we found an orphanage and arranged with them that the next day we would come and bring our students. And the next day when we came, Todd was fixing windows that were broken in the front of the orphanage with some kids, and I was serving what was the first meat that those kids that had in over a year and one of the kids was coming up to the table a lot. And Todd noticed and said, “Do you see her?” And I said, “Oh, my gosh, she’s so cute. I can’t keep my eyes off her.” And then he said, “Well, pretty sure you take your eyes off her a few times, because she’s been in your line like five times, and I don’t really know a preschooler who can eat that much food.” So I followed her the next time she came up, and I saw from the doorframe of her dorm room that she and her buddies were taking the food that they have taken off the table, and they were hiding it under their mattresses, saving it for another day. And on that doorframe, Todd and I had what we’ve since called our defining moment. And we decided we were going to do something about it.
Ray: So you were college students?
Todd: Just out of college. We were both teachers; we really felt called to do missions but weren’t ready yet to move. And we actually then came back and started saving one of our salaries completely. And we banked it, and we had a double income, no kids, so we saved one of our salaries completely. And then in 1997, we picked up and moved to Monterrey, Mexico.
Ray: So this really wasn’t a plan. This was a response to God prompting your heart.
Beth: Yeah, we really wanted to learn the language and understand the culture of the hurt child and develop relationships. But that was about as far as our vision was taking us. And we thought, maybe just a year, we could go there for a year and see what could happen. But probably within the first 90 days, we realized the trajectory of our whole life was going to change.
Ray: So here you are, fairly fresh out of college, back in the day, and you’re on this trip. And you have your defining moment. It talks about in Zachariah 4, “Do not despise the day of humble beginnings.” Would you consider that to be a humble beginning for the ministry?
Beth: Very much so, and really the posture we took – because it was necessary – was one of a student. And I would say, 20 years later, we are still in the posture of a student. And probably, if you were to look under the hood of our leadership, that would be one of the core components you’d see, is that we are constantly learning. There’s never been a point where we’re like, “We’ve got, you know, the orphan thing that makes sense. We know how to do that.” We’re constantly learning how to do what it is that God’s called us to do in more effective ways.
Ray: And so you went from student, you were participant, and now you truly are leading an organization that I’m sure you never thought would get to where it is. Todd, would you take a moment and give us just, kind of the structure and the framework, the size and the scope of this ministry at Back2Back? It’s amazing what’s happened.
Todd: Sure. So, you know, when we started, it was just Beth and I, and then we grew real quickly to about a team of seven. Now we’re all the way up to a team of about 250 staff. So globally, we serve in Mexico in three places, we serve in Nigeria, India, and Haiti, and we’re looking to expand in the Dominican Republic. So throughout that, we’ve got a team, probably about 65% nationals, so Mexicans, Indians, and the rest are ex-pat missionary staff and our US team here in the US.
Ray: So in your wildest dreams, did you ever see this?
Beth: No, no. And the best part about that is like, literally, you don’t know exactly what’s next. I often get asked, “Where do you see Back2Back in 10 years?” And in case that was one of the questions you had for us today, this is my answer: Everything inside of me wants to say something that would impress you, like we’re going to be in 100 countries with a million staff and a billion dollars. But the truth of the matter is, we’ve learned leadership is not about having the craziest idea in the room or trying to see so far down the pike that you stop listening to what the Lord’s telling you about today. It’s really about listening to the Lord and taking the next step.
Todd: Yeah, I actually just had a conversation with somebody yesterday. I was saying that in orphan care when we work with the orphans and vulnerable children, one of the challenges we have is, it’s not like you’re flying a path flight, and you have an absolute straight direction, and all the decisions are clear, and here’s the clear path. It’s more like we’re flying through an asteroid field, and we’re navigating. And I really think that navigation is, the only way to really solve it is go, “Okay, God, what do you want? How do you want us to confront this? How do you want us to lead this? We don’t have the answers.” And that’s the way we tend to lead and learn.
Ray: Walk us through those early days – some of the challenges because you saw this huge need, but you didn’t know, how do we get the resources? How do we get the people? Just walk us back through what that felt like because I’m sure that some of our listeners will identify with the early days.
Beth: Yeah, I mean, part of growing a team around us was that first step: recognizing there are some things that God has gifted us in, and we need to figure out how to spend the majority of our day doing what God’s gifted us in. And then we need to build a team around where God has also called them, to use their giftings. And they don’t necessarily work for us; they work alongside of us. They’re our co-laborers, and honoring the calling that God’s had for them, but still making sure there’s a structure so that things can be accomplished and measured and outcomes can happen, but not feeling like people necessarily are there to fulfill your calling.
I can remember at one point early on, one of our earliest staff members said, “I love Jesus a whole lot more than I love you. If I think and I take the time to understand what it is that He’s asked me to do in this, I’m going to work all day all night; all this will be what I think about all the time. If I’m actually just accomplishing your agenda, I’m going to do that, you know, to the extent which I need to in order to receive a paycheck.” And I thought, “I want A, I don’t want B. I want you to be thinking about this when you go to bed and wake up. I want you to be wanting to improve in every way. So how is it that we can co-labor together?”
Ray: That is a phenomenal statement. And that was said how long ago? And you remember it like yesterday.
Beth: I can remember the bench I was sitting on when he said that. And I thought, “We need to be shepherds. We need to figure out how to help people hear God’s call, fulfill God’s call.” Still, within that, we still have an org chart, job descriptions, strategic plans, and all kinds of things that make sure there’s a map to it, but they don’t work for us. They have to understand that they work for the pleasure of Jesus.
Todd: Yeah, and I mean, I say this all the time, but Back2Back’s not only a ministry, it’s an organization, so you have to have the organizational principles. But the ministry is what leads us – the mission, the passion, the people – and when people come on staff or want to come on staff, we say three things. You’ve got to be called to the orphan, called to the way Back2Back does it, because we have a specific method, kind of like playing baseball rather than basketball, and you got to be called to a place. But all of that, it really is about them in their walk with God and about them listening to what God wants them to do alongside what Back2Back is doing.
Ray: I just love the way, what you just shared Beth, that if someone’s running a business, if someone is working in a business and has a boss, if they love Jesus, that’s going to really compel them to perform at a level that demonstrates their love for Jesus, and it’s not about the company. I mean, that’s a great statement. As you think that, would either one of you, or perhaps both of you, talk about maybe the biggest mistake that you’ve made as a leader over the last 20 years?
Todd: Well, this might not be a mistake, but it was it was a really quick, early life lesson. We had Beth and I were working there, we’d served for about three years, and we had our first staff couple report. And they were missionary staff, and we’d kind of oriented them and trained them a little bit, and had a little six-month window where they got acclimated to what we do and relationships and language, etc. I sat down with the gentleman who came on staff with us, and I said, “Okay, well, here we’re going to define what you’re going to do. And here’s where we’re going to do it,” and he looked at me and said, “Well, I’ll pray about it.”
And I said, “Whoa, I already prayed about it; this is where you’re going to do.” But, you know, it really wasn’t necessarily a bad thing that he was going to pray about it. But we were desperate for help; we were dying on the vine. We were doing– we were hosting mission trip guests, about 300 people a year. And so you know, we were working our tails off and we needed the help. And so it was just an early life lesson of what I call adding clarity to what we do and making sure you’re a good communicator and communicating up front. And that was just a huge life lesson. So we work really hard to give clarity to roles, clarity to what people were doing, and overcommunicate that because otherwise, it tends to end up in a tense moment. The end of that story was six months of tension, frustration for me going, Hey, and Beth and I laying in bed one night talking, which you should never talk about work in bed, but we were talking. She said, “Hey, they’re going to leave if we don’t figure this out.” And so we really rallied around that and figured it out.
Ray: Anything you’d add to that, Beth?
Beth: Yeah, I mean, for anyone who’s going to be doing kind of work cross-culturally, I think, we were building a church in an impoverished community. The deal we had made with the pastor is, we’ll buy the materials, and you and your congregants will do the labor, the actual construction. And that felt to us like a good handshake between what they had to offer and what we had to offer. Well, we’d been kind of puttering along in that process for almost a year.
And the donor who was, who had paid for the materials was going to come. They had about 20% left of the project. So I went to that pastor and said, “You guys have done such a great job. But here’s what I’m going to do. Let’s pay for the last 20% of the labor so we can get it done on time. And then we can have a ribbon cutting when this donor comes.” And the pastor looked at me and said, “You haven’t been paying attention very much have you?” And I’m like, “I’ve been definitely pay attention. What are you talking about?” And he said, “I’ve been undoing for the last probably two months when folks.” He’s like, “I’m in an impoverished community where men go out every day and look for work when they don’t have any place to work. They come to the job site at the church because they have dignity here. They can get dirty; they can use their skills, they can spend time with each other, they can go home at night and feel good about the fact that they work. They look like they worked all day to their family, even though they weren’t compensated.” He said, “I can’t get any one of these men to come to a Bible study or a discipleship group. But they’ll come and work on this job site all the time.”
He said, “At the end of the night, I undo some of what they’ve done, so the next day, there’s something for the next guy to do. I’m spending time with these men all day.” And he said, “If you finish my second floor, I’m going to start building the third floor, and we don’t even need it yet. Because I’m just looking for a reason to have these men be drawn to our church.” And I realized that I was valuing accomplishment, and he was valuing relationship. And if I’m going to play in his field, I need to value what he values. And that meant I needed to value relationship over accomplishment. And that was a very good lesson for me to realize that I need to make sure that my eyesight isn’t from my bias, but from the perspective of the one that I’m trying to serve.
Ray: It sounds to me, and I’m going to speculate here, and correct me if I’m wrong here. But part of, if I’m in your shoes, I’m thinking, “Hey, I’m also feeling like I want to serve my donor, and I want them to feel like their investment is paying off,” right? That there’s a completed project through their eyes. What happened there? Did you get a chance to share that story with the donor?
Beth: Yes, I did. And it was an educational opportunity. And I said, “You thought you were building a capital project, but you’re actually investing in a discipleship program, which is a much higher value.” And so it was an educational opportunity for me to pass on the lesson God had taught me to a donor.
Ray: Yeah, that unexpected surprise there. I love it when the Lord just shows up and shows off like that. Beth, you have become quite an accomplished author, and many of these stories are told through your books. And how many books now have you been blessed to write?
Beth: I just finished the eighth. So yeah, Start With Amen came out in May of 2017.
Ray: So just give us just a glimpse of the passion, you know, kind of like, what’s behind these books? What are you trying to share, the message there, you know?
Beth: I think that a lot of times, when you read about what God’s doing around the world, oftentimes, the focus is on what man isn’t doing, it’s like, this area’s, you know, devastated or this area is oppressed, or this, and I like to write about what God is doing, not about what man isn’t doing. And so I just tell the stories of the different places where we’ve seen God move around the world and the ways in which my front row seat to that has changed my life. So when I very first started to write, it was more about what I thought the world needed to know. And now it’s more about what God has taught me.
Ray: Let’s talk about why is the organizational side of this so important? And speak to our business leaders.
Todd: Yeah, we want to be efficient, want to be good stewards of resources. So we not only want to steward money and things, but we want to stay with people’s time. So when somebody comes on a trip, we always say we’re kind of on this highway, and you’re on-ramping and then off-ramping, so we’re going to maximize and utilize every human resource that you bring. You know, you might be doing a work project, or you might be interacting with a child, which is actually a huge impact, you know. So that intentional, we call it “play with purpose” time has an impact on a child’s life, especially from adults, which is really, really powerful. But that efficient systems that we have, of course, I’m really big on systems and processes, because it saves time, it saves money. You know, if you don’t build those, then you become fairly inefficient, and it doesn’t work.
Ray: Beth, what would you add to that?
Beth: Just that very sentence that we feel every day, like, God gives us these tools. And sometimes those tools are human people, sometimes those tools are dollars, but the better we use those, the more He entrusts us with more. And I feel like whether you’re running a business or a ministry, the way with which you honor, respect, and spend wisely whatever He’s putting your hand, the more He entrusts to you. And so we just, we want to help as many kids as possible, so we do everything we can with everything we’ve given so that He will give us more and more.
Todd: And one question we get a lot, and Beth can add to it, but it’s, you know, wouldn’t it be better just for me to send money instead of my people? But you have to look at it as a vision-driven decision, you know, you have to. When you invest in your people, so you bring a team of people, you’re investing in them to then come back and invest in others’ lives, so it’s exposure. I just went on a trip to the Dominican Republic with some business leaders and it was some of their first-time experiences internationally. And I said at the end of the trip, “You can’t unsee this. So whether you commit and do something with Back2Back here in the Dominican Republic, or you go back to your own community, you can’t unsee the need. So you’ve got to recognize, Hey, now’s your chance to invest in other people’s lives.”
Beth: Absolutely. I mean, there’s no doubt, over the course of 20 years, you know, we’ve had thousands, and thousands, and thousands of people who have visited who have donated far more hours in the other 51 weeks of the year than they ever spent on the mission field. But we want to see an experience like a mission trip be a springboard towards further service in wherever it is that they live.
Ray: It really is about stewardship. So whether it’s like in your case, leading a very substantially – now substantially – sized, non-profit Christian ministry or a small start-up or a large company, whatever, leadership is about stewardship of the human capital, to your point, Beth, as well as those financial and other non-financial resources. That’s really what leadership is all about is stewardship. And so I thank you guys for sharing those examples. Okay. So I don’t believe in regrets. However, I think there are in all of our lives, things that we would do differently if given another chance. So if you could kind of hit the pause button and say, “Hey, if we had a chance to do this differently,” what would you do differently along the way?
Todd: You know, I heard a great quote, and I think it was Schultz, who was the operations guy for a hotel chain. But anyway, he said, culture is an outcome. And I think if we did something over, we did a great job. I think in the beginning with a small team, we had a culture, it just was organic, and the people that we recruited, the people that came and served alongside of us, there was a culture that was there. I think if I would have done something different, it would be to make sure that we maintain that culture as we grew. And we’ve done a fairly decent job of that, but I think I would have been more intentional about investing in that because that culture has a significant impact. It’s about the stewardship issue; it’s about sharing resources and other organizations; it’s all those things that we highly value. But they’re caught, not taught. You know, you got to make sure that you maintain that as you grow.
Ray: Beth, any thoughts on that?
Beth: Yeah, I mean, I think in the very beginning, the orphan was so totally in the bullseye, it was to the exclusion of everything else. So other things were happening; God was using the heart that we had for orphans to benefit donors, to benefit mission trip guests, to benefit local, national pastors, to benefit our staff. But I think it took a while for me to see the ‘and’ not the ‘or’. When I realize now that God loves the donor as much as he loves the orphan child, so I need to honor and value and come alongside every person in the story. It took a while for my perspective, and frankly, maturity, to grow, to see that God is multifaceted, and it’s really our job to wake up every day, be obedient and available, and then He does all these other storylines that I was kind of blinded to for a season.
Ray: How would you say you both have grown over the years? I mean, from this little start-up to this amazing organization: 250 staff, multiple continents. How have you grown as leaders?
Todd: I mean, one of our cultural values at Back2Back is to be learners. And I think that’s how we’ve grown. I literally suck the life out of people when I find out what they do. In Monterey, where we served for 15 years, there was a front porch. It’s a metaphor in some ways now, but you know, business leaders would come down, and I would suck them dry of “Hey, how do you do this?” So I think the growth and the learning together equals, kind of, how you, “Okay, we’re willing to try something new. Hey, you know, as we grow, we have to change things.” And so that to me and then the undercurrent on that is the dependency on Jesus. I generally can say that I don’t think I was capable of doing anything at any stage of the organization without Jesus. He made me capable and still makes me capable. And when I’m not capable anymore, He’s going to say, “Your going to step down, Todd.”
Beth: I think that you can’t break God’s economy, no matter what it is that He’s asked you to do. And the idea of generosity has been a big part of our growth. So, 2012, Todd and I were giving a little workshop at the International Orphan Summit. And our little work, we were probably $5 million at that point, about 100 employees.
And we said we would do this little breakout that was called “Taking Your Start-up Non-profit to a Midsize Organization.” And we took some of the for-profit things that Todd and I had sucked out of people lives – best practices – we put it through our faith filter, and we were going to just share this. And we made 30 copies. We thought if 30 little start-up non-profits came and learned how we did strategic planning or board governance or HR policies, like, that would have been such a huge win for us at some point; we’d love to give that away. We opened the door, and over 400 people came in because we’re all trying to figure out how to do what we do better. That’s the whole nature of wanting more of what God has for us. And so we were totally overwhelmed.
We stood on that stage and said, anything we’ve ever created, ever, anybody can have for free. Just take our logo off it; put your logo on it. It might not be everything that you need, but it’ll get you halfway there. That opened up in 2012, for us, this spirit of generosity, that there was an anointing in the organization. You can directly point back to that season; we’ve way more than doubled in size since then. And we have, as we’ve given away what we’ve learned, we’ve also, it’s a two-way street. We’ve learned from those that we’ve shared alongside of, and I think that that has been a big part of our growth as leadership, that the more you give away, the more God gives back to you, whether you’re in a for-profit or a ministry venue, that’s His economy.
Ray: I love that. I know it’s a cliché, so to speak, you can’t outgive God, but He just has a way, doesn’t He? When we open our hearts to His plan, He just shows up, shows off. So I want you to just for a moment, think about what words of encouragement would you have for someone who’s listening to the program, and, and maybe they have some idea, and they’re full of doubt. They’re not sure they can do it. They’re just uncertain about it. Do you have any words of encouragement that you might be able to pass along? Because you all started from something real small to something real big now.
Beth: I don’t think you have to have every question answered before you step forward. I think that’s part of the faith of it. So like, even today, we have new initiatives, new opportunities. The temptation is to think I need to have, I need to be totally risk-averse; I need to have a contingency plan for every possible way this thing can go off the rails; I need to have an answer to any question that a donor or board member might have. But I think there’s this tipping point in your heart and mind where you’re like, I’m pretty sure this is it.
And I still have some gray out there, and the edges aren’t totally defined, but I’m going to take a step and watch some of it unfold in real time. And I think for someone who has an idea out there, I would just encourage them to take steps towards it, and not wait until it they feel ready or qualified or prepared. Because I think Todd and I stand in a long line of people in Scripture who are underqualified, ill-prepared, and immature. I mean, we really were just available and faithful, and then God did the rest of it. And so 20 years later, we have more of that experience under our belt. But the truth is, if we’re not still trying things that we’re in over our head in, then we’re in the wrong place.
Todd: I agree with that, 100%.
Ray: Anything you’d add?
Todd: No, that sums it up. I mean, the unique thing for Beth and I, we’re extremely fortunate, our gifts really complement each other. I am really the structure, the operations, the processes, you know. So she comes with a big idea; I say, No, no, no. Then we say yes, yes, yes. And then we flesh it out.
Beth: No, I always say Todd does all the work; I just talk about it, right?. We’re a team.
Todd: So I think that’s some element, to make sure you get the right people on the team, someone who, you know, if you got the vision and you get somebody who can add some of the layers of the processes behind you, but don’t overthink it. I mean, I think we tend to overthink things. I think there’s probably a few things that you can’t not have. But identify those and then go forward.
Ray: Alright, fantastic. Well, you talked a while ago about probably shouldn’t talk about ministry while we’re trying to go to sleep, right? There are some unique dynamics, right? A lot of our listeners are in family-owned businesses. There’s complexities there. How have you navigated those waters as a married couple?
Beth: We have a couple ground rules. Like early on, we had a two-story house. And we used to say, on the second floor of the house, we couldn’t talk about work. So sometimes one of the two of us would be the top of the stairs like, “Come up here,” you know, “This is the promised land; leave it all behind.” So we have a couple ground rules about when we don’t wear that hat, you know, and when we don’t take the stress of home into our workday or the stress of work into our home life.
But I think ultimately, respecting each other’s gifts and not feeling threatened by them. So very much, Todd is the one that creates a structure and that people report to. And I don’t try to intersect myself into that. I want him to have those direct reports; I want him to hold them accountable. He’ll do that 10 times better than I will. It doesn’t make sense for me to do our budget projections for next year. He wants me to go meet with a donor; he wants me to stand on a stage; that’s where my giftings are. So we realize that God did give us complimentary gifts and that I don’t want to try to compete with him in any way.
Ray: That is very practical. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. So before we came on the air, I said, there’s one question that I asked, and it’s always the last question. In Proverbs chapter 4, verse 23, Solomon says that “Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.” There’s some biblical scholars who believe that these were among Solomon’s last words. Imagine this guy. Now he’s at the end of his time, and he’s gathering his friends and his loved ones, and he says, “Hey, I’ve given you all this wisdom; I’ve given you all this great stuff to live by. But now, I want you to remember this: above all else, guard your heart.” And so Todd, Beth, I want to ask that same question. Let’s just imagine you’re at the end of your time, and you get a chance to gather your friends, gather your loved ones, and you’re going to share your “above all else” advice. Above all else…
Beth: Surrender to Jesus. I mean, surrender your agenda, your idea of what life is supposed to look like, to Jesus. Because even if you have disappointment in life, or you feel doubt or discouragement, that sense of surrender to Him always comes back sweeter than anything you could have pictured on your own. So if I was telling everyone that I loved the biggest key to the freedom that I experience in Christ, it would be surrender.
Todd: Yeah, I think for me, I would say, I have this little phrase I’ve been saying lately, but we’re on the same side. And, you know, just giving a real practical example. You know, in our world, most of the people we work with are Christians, you know, so ministry, but that doesn’t make us agree. But in the end of the day, we serve the same Jesus. And so like I had a pretty intense conversation with a co-worker on Friday, and we’re at church, and I saw him in front, and his hands were raised up when he was worshiping, and I thought to myself, “We’re on the same side.” You know, that’s what I would say, you know. If anything, stay on the same side. And that same side is with the side of Jesus. And so when you’re working with other leaders who are Christians, Christ-followers, there’s no reason to disconnect to the nth degree. We’re on the same side. That’s what I would say.
Ray: Incredible. Well, I just can’t thank you both for your gracious time today. Any closing words or encouragement, thoughts either one of you would want to share with our audience?
Beth: I was just thinking, you know, the thing we didn’t really talk about was how and who to surround yourself with. You know, there were all kinds of days when we didn’t want to do what we were doing anymore. And we had purposely sewn into our life relationships that were truth-speakers and encouragers that said “Do it another day,” or “Come out and take a deep breath,” or “What are you holding on to that you need to let go of?” You know, people that spoke into our lives and still do. So I would encourage, whether you’re a business owner, or you’re in ministry, make sure you have people around you that, that remind you of that which is most important, that ask the hard questions that you have given the freedom to tell you no, that say the things that reinforce the values that you want to live by. Make sure you have those relationships in your life because they are tremendous value.
Todd: Just to top that, these things are called the 6 C’s leadership, and the last one is Community. And my phrase is, “Without community, there’s no accountability. Without accountability, there’s no self-awareness.” And you have to build people around you that help you become self-aware. Otherwise, we become idiots.
Ray: One more time, how can our listeners learn about Back2Back? Folks, please check out this ministry. Business leaders, bring your teams. I promise it’ll be one of the most amazing team-building experiences and heart transformation experiences. Beth, how can they get involved? How can they learn more?
Beth: Yeah, we have a website: Back2Back.org. And we’re all over social media. You can hear stories and see pictures of the kids that we serve.
Ray: Well folks, I promised you on the front end here that this was going to bless your socks off, and I haven’t been disappointed. I hope you’ve been encouraged and blessed. And that’s what we’re all about here at Bottom Line Faith, is we want to really learn from some of our nation’s greatest Christian leaders, whether they be in business and non-profits, sports and entertainment. Check us out on the web at bottomlinefaith.org. And if you’re in business and you want to learn how to be in community, just like what Beth talked about with other Christians in business, visit our website at truthatwork.org. Learn about our Round Table program. Till next time, God bless and we’ll see you soon.