Ray is joined by innovative thinker Perry Marshall to discuss his bold take on the Pareto Principle, the importance of the things we don’t pay attention to, and the impact faith has on everyday life.
Perry Marshall is one of the most sought after business consultants in the world, endorsed in FORBES and INC Magazine. He is the owner of Perry S. Marshall & Assoiates and founded the $10 million Evolution 2.0 Prize, the world’s largest science prize.
His reinvention of the Pareto Principle is published in Harvard Business Review. NASA’s Jet Propulsion Labs at the California Institute of Technology uses his 80/20 Curve as a productivity tool. Perry also wrote the Ultimate Guide to Google AdWords, the best-selling book on internet advertising, that laid the foundation for the $100 billion Pay Per Click industry.
“When you get through the trials, the rewards for solving problems at their roots are very, very, very great.”
“You can wait for God to test you or can sort of voluntarily take on testing.”
1. Faith informs everything that you do.
2. The 80/20 rule goes deeper than you think.
3. Inequality is baked into the universe.
4. The average person has very little effect on anything.
5. Who are you not paying attention to?
80/20 Sales and Marketing book
Ultimate Guide to Google AdWords
Ray: Hello everyone. This is Ray Hilbert. I am your host here at Bottom Line Faith. This is the program where we travel the country north to south, east to west, and we have the opportunity to interview some of the most amazing Christ followers, who love Jesus and who are living out their faith in the marketplace. We interview CEOs, entrepreneurs, occasional athletes and coaches, but what all of our guests have in common is they love the Lord and they are seeking to live out their faith in the marketplace. In fact, our tagline here is eternal business and real life.
And so that’s what we’re going to talk about today. I am just in the outskirts of Chicago, Illinois and I am with Perry Marshall. Now folks, let me just give you a little bit of insight on our guest today, Perry Marshall. He is an extraordinarily in demand business consultant, one of the most in demand in the world. He’s been endorsed by Forbes and Inc. Magazine. He has major clients that he’s worked with across the globe. He talks and teaches to companies and entrepreneurs globally. We all know at a surface level the 80/20, the Pareto principle, but Perry has written on this, is a global expert on this and we’re going to dive into that today. Perry, welcome to Bottom Line Faith.
Perry: Good to be here. Thanks having me and thanks for coming, driving, I don’t know, hundreds of miles and being here. That’s great.
Ray: Well, it felt like that. It was a beautiful rainy day. I live in Indianapolis and driving up to the Chicago market. But as I was driving up, I wasn’t exactly sure where to go with this conversation because we could talk for hours on Evolution 2.0. We could talk for hours on 80/20 and hopefully we can integrate and talk a little bit about it all. But take just a moment and just give a little bit of background on your faith journey. We’ll kind of set the stage there and then we’ll get into all this other fun stuff. Fun stuff.
Perry: So I’ve got a wife and six kids, four standard issue and two adopted from China. And I grew up a pastor’s kid. And everybody’s knows that pastor’s kids are rowdy and rebellious and I definitely fit the bill. When you grow up saturated in a faith environment, including being a Christian school and all that, that doesn’t mean you own it. It just means that this is what’s been given to you. So I went through multiple phases of okay, does this really make sense and is this really rational and does this actually work? And I would also say I significantly reinvented my approach to faith multiple times as well. I would say I approach things very differently than I did when I was a kid.
I think that faith informs everything that you do and I don’t necessarily think it needs to be worn on your sleeve. There are times when you have an overt late night conversation about all of that stuff. And I think there’s a lot of times when you just treat people a certain way, because customers are made in the image of God.
And it’s as much about creating a culture as it is about anything else. So here we are in Chicago. I’m 50 years old and hopefully have learned a thing or two from my bumps and bruises.
Ray: Well your formal training is as an electrical engineer, is that correct?
Ray: So tell our audience now what does your professional life look like right now? You’ve got a lot going on, but just walk us through that.
Perry: I’m known probably best as the guy that wrote the book on Google advertising. So my book Ultimate Guide to Google AdWords is the best selling book on internet advertising. I taught hundreds of thousands of people how to buy Google ads and Facebook ads and maneuver direct marketing. Direct marketing was the red headed stepchild of advertising for almost a century. And then when the internet came along, all of a sudden the direct marketers were the guys in charge. And so it’s turned into a highly precise science with billions and billions and billions dollars riding on it. Because remember, $100 billion that Google and Facebook get is only the tip of the iceberg of the business that’s influenced by those ad dollars, right? If you just… let’s go with an assumption, that 5% of the money gets spent on ads or 10% or something, then there’s trillions of dollars, right? So that’s a very big deal.
More recently, reinvented the 80/20 rule. I don’t think it had been properly taught before I got ahold of it. Most people think they understand 80/20 I say they really don’t. It’s way deeper than people think. And this gets me into interactions with all kinds of interesting people and so it’s fun. It’s my life is actually a lot of fun and I’m thankful for it. We do a lot of cool things.
Ray: Okay. Well, where should we start today? Should we talk a little bit about 80/20 or should we just jump right in?
Perry: Let’s start with 80/20. We can go further into the stratosphere later. But when I was a sales manager at a software company, I read in a book somewhere about Vilfredo Pareto and the Italian economist who figured out that 20% of the people have 80% of the money and 80% of the people at 20% of the money. And it didn’t seem to matter what country he was looking at or what their economic system is, that inequality was always there. It was almost like all these arguments about capitalism and socialism affect things less than you think they do because say okay, and then it said that it’s true in sales too. 80% of your money comes from 20% of your customers.
And I thought, is that right? And I printed out a QuickBooks printout and I went through it with a calculator. It was like, I’ll be darned.
Ray: It’s all there.
Perry: When I get 20% down from top to bottom, I’ve got 80% of the money and then the rest is kind of this long tail. And I thought, well gee, that’s interesting. And then I just kind of moved on.
Well, there are two things that I didn’t understand about it. The first thing was, this is not just a economics or a business rule of thumb. It’s actually a universal law of nature and it’s everywhere. Okay? It’s in almost any spreadsheet that you could have of any business. If you’re sorting the numbers from top to bottom, that column is usually 80/20. It could be product defects. It could be customer returns. it could be support tickets. it could be problems with employee, like employee sick days. 20% of the employees have 80% of the sick days. It’s also in ordinary physical things. 80% of the dirt on your carpet is in 20% of the carpet, because it’s that track where most people walk. And 80% of the cars drive on 20% of the roads. And 80% of the leaves are on 20% of the tree branches. It’s the size of craters on the moon and it’s the size of sand grains in a bucket of sand. It’s all over. It literally is a law of cause and effect. And so I didn’t realize that until about 15 years ago.
The other thing that I didn’t realize was that it’s fractal. Now, fractal is a very powerful concept, which is a pattern in a pattern in a pattern in a pattern in a pattern.
Ray: Almost like one of those Russian dolls?
Perry: Yes. Okay. So a tree… there’s a tree outside and it’s 50 feet tall and the tree has this big branching pattern. But I can zoom into the branches, I can zoom in to the twigs, I can zoom into the leaves, I can zoom in with a microscope on the veins in the leaves, in the branching just keeps going down and down and down and down, down, all the way down to the cells. Okay, so how many levels of branching are there in a tree? 10, 20, 30 where each one is a order of magnitude.
80/20 is the same way. So there’s an 80/20 inside the 80/20 and then there’s another one. And so 20% of the people in the planet have 80% of the wealth. But then I can take the 20, the top 20% and 20% of them have 80% of that wealth. And I can take the top 20% of them and 20% of them have 80% of the wealth. I can get all the way to the Forbes 400 or the Fortune 500 and 80/20 is still true. And you know what? It’s still true when I get to the top 10 richest people in the world. 20% of the richest people in the world still have 80% of the money. So it’s true from 8 billion people all the way down to the richest 10 people. It’s a law of nature.
Most people fight it. They should be harnessing it. Your whole life becomes a way more efficient when you flow with the way that nature wants to flow. And then, this is where a kingdom mindset becomes different than the rest of the world, and it also becomes more self aware than the rest of the world, is that you have to decide when you need to be 80/20 and when you need to be about equality. Okay. And most people, and most Christians, are very vague, very confused. They kind of mix things together. They don’t really see things for how they really are.
And so there’s enormous levers in business, if you can learn how to harness 80/20 and really all of our political arguments about, well, how do we do healthcare and how do we treat the poor and how do we do social security and all these kinds of things, they are questions of how you deal with 80/20. How do you deal with inequality because inequality’s baked into the universe.
I think it tells you this thing, some things about God. I think there’s some theological things. I don’t know if we’ll get into those today, but it’s very deep. And so I wrote a book called 80/20 Sales and Marketing that goes way into it.
Ray: Well, I’ve heard as I’ve listened to some of your other presentations and podcast interviews and so forth, you talk about, and I may not say this exactly right, so correct me, but some things talk about how things happen and some things… and like religion is why things happen. Would you just elaborate on that a little bit because I think there’s an interesting tie into this?
Perry: Oh, well, okay. Yeah, so in the world there’s really two questions. There’s what and there’s why. Okay, now the what questions are the periodic table and chemistry and physics and laws of physics and how fast meteors fall through the sky and the orbits of the suns and the planets. There’s a whole world of material things. Okay. But then there’s a whole world of, let’s see, immaterial things are purposeful things. And that’s the world of purpose and intention. And you can’t derive purpose or intention from the laws of physics, like a meteor crashes into a planet and it just obeys the laws of physics and that’s it. It just obeys a formula. And we know what the formulas are and we know how this stuff works.
But if I say, “Ray, raise your right hand,” you can raise your right hand or you could go, “No, I don’t feel like raising my right hand.” Or I say, “Ray vote for Bernie Sanders.” And you go, “I don’t want to vote for Bernie Sanders.” Or you can say, “Oh I love that guy.” Right? This is the world of choice.
And well, so this is like a big philosophical scientific question of where does choice come from, which is… well that’s why I created Evolution 2.0 prize, which is, well that’s a whole nother conversation. But it matters, right?
And well this is another thing where I think people are kind of unclear about how the world works. I think people have choices. I think people have free will. I actually think all living things have free will. I think when I tell my dog not to pee on the carpet, the dog decides whether he’s going to pee on the carpet or not. And we all know what it’s like when they know they did it and look at you and they’re guilt.
Ray: They’re in the corner cowering.
Perry: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It’s like I can tell the dog did something just by how he looks at me when I was… what did you do? Oh man. Okay. There’s a surprise in the house somewhere. I guess we’re going to find out where that is.
Ray: That’s exactly right. And so kind of heading back to this 80/20, talk to us about the difference between averages and 80/20, because I love what you teach in this and as it relates to business.
Perry: Most of the time when somebody tells you the average of something, it’s not what you what to know.
Ray: So for example, our average customer spends $200 a year.
Perry: Right. Or our average customer spends $200 or the average person in the city makes $57,000 a year. That is almost never… or the average grade on the history test was 77%. That’s almost never what you want to know, okay, because average, the average person has very little effect on anything. Okay? What 80/20 says is that 20% of the people affect 80% of what goes on, and 4% of the people affect two-thirds of what goes on in 1% of the people affect half of what goes on. And a tiny percentage of people, a minuscule percentage of people affect 25% of everything. Okay? This is how the world actually works.
If 100 kids take a science test and the average is 77, well the average kid is not going to be a scientist. He’s not going to do any scientific work. He’s not going to have any effect on the outcome of anything scientific. One kid will do more science than all 99 of the other ones put together. And that’s the one you care about. And that’s the one who’s going to get a job at India labs or Abbott or at a university or somewhere. That’s the one who’s going to make all the decisions. That’s the one who’s going to spend the scientific research money. And everything is like this.
When I do seminars, one of my favorite things to do is I’ll go… so I had 250 people at an entrepreneur magazine conference a few years ago in Florida. So I go, everybody who owns shoes stand up, whole crowd and everybody stands up. So if you own five pairs of shoes or less, sit down and a bunch of people sit down and then I start doubling the number. 10, sit down. 20, sit down. 40, sit down. 80. So almost everybody’s sit down. 160, there’s a few people still standing. 320, there’s still a few people-
Perry: Still standing. 640, there’s still one woman standing. I go, how many shoes do you have? And she goes, “800.”
Ray: Oh, my word.
Perry: Then I do it with domain names. The number one… there was a guy in the room with 5 million domain names, there was a person with 10 million in the room. Okay? Now this always happens, okay, especially with shoes, okay?
Perry: Now not every crowd has a 10 million domain name person in it. An entrepreneur magazine crowd would, okay. But I did a presentation at Notre Dame two months ago and there was 40 people in the room and one woman had 160 pairs of shoes. It’s always the case that 1% of the people have 50% of the shoes. And it’s true of real estate and automobiles and watches and audio equipment and books. It’s always true. Okay. When you suddenly realize how unequal everything is, it’s this massive eye opening experience. And business people must know this, okay?
You see it in the gospels. Jesus sent out 70 people, okay? But he had 12 disciples. And then who did he take to the Mount of transfiguration? Peter, James and John. And John was a disciple-
Ray: He was the one.
Perry: Jesus loved. Okay? So you have 70, 12, 3 and 1, even just in Jesus. Right?
Ray: Yeah, that’s fantastic.
Perry: Okay. You have the 12 tribes of Israel, but you have 2 tribes that really influenced the political and the religious activity of the nation. Right? 80/20 is everywhere. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it.
But when people read 80/20 Sales and Marketing, they go, “Oh my goodness, I cannot look out the window and not see 80/20 now.” Now, that’s huge, because it’s like you have these little glasses that you can put on and you go, okay… so you could walk into any business and start finding the 80/20s.
There’s the good 80/20s and there’s the bad 80/20s, right? The good 80/20s are the most profitable customers and the most profitable product lines and the most productive employees. Okay. And then there’s the employees that chew up time and they cause scandals and problems with the other employees. And most businesses lose money on at least 5 to 10% of their customers and 5% of their product lines, at least. Sometimes more like 15 or 20%. You’re taping dollar bills to every unit that gets shipped out and you don’t know it. Almost always true.
Ray: This so intriguing to me. And I know we could talk about this for hours, but let’s say that I’m a business owner, an entrepreneur listening to this conversation and whether I want to use this teaching for evaluating my sales team and my top producers versus my non-producers. Or maybe I’m an accountant and I’m trying to decide which of my clients to keep. Or I’m a printer and I’m needing to decide about my equipment or my customers. Where do I start with this? How do I take this principle that’s universal, as you said, it’s everywhere, what do I do to start?
Perry: Okay, so let’s start with customers. 20% of your customers make 80% of your money and some percentage of your customers, probably 5 or 10%, actually lose you money. The first thing that you can do to make your life easier is fire some customers. Now most people have never done this. But I was a keynote speaker at a conference for public accountants a few years ago. I’m standing in front of all these CPAs and they all do tax stuff and everything. I go, “So how many of you, you have that client? Okay. And he brings you this giant shoe box full of receipts at 6:00 PM on April 14 and everything’s a crisis and he sends you 44 different emails and he’s a real pain. And maybe he’s unkind your staff and you’re going, I’m only making $300 a year on this guy.” I said, “So how many of you have that guy?”
Ray: Everybody. Yeah, everybody. Yeah.
Perry: And all these hands go up, right? I go, “So I, Perry Marshall, bestselling author, I give you permission. You can fire these clients. Now, you don’t have to be mean about it, but you can send them a letter and you can say, “Hey, I sat down with my board the other day,” which could be your wife, right? “And we are moving our business in some new directions and currently doing your taxes is just not a good fit for where we’re headed. We’ll be happy to refer you to some other people, transfer your information over to these other guys.” And you just move them off your plate. Well because it really costs you $900 to do that $300 tax job. Okay, so you just came out $900 ahead and you don’t have to do the work.” Okay. Then everybody has the customer who faxes in a purchase order once a year and it’s for $85,000 and nobody even knows what these people do.
Right? Right. And it’s like they’re low maintenance and nobody hardly even notices that it happens and you ship the stuff out. It’s like has anybody ever gone and visited these people? Right. And then you’re like, “Hey, I really appreciate your business. Can we just stop by and get to know you, see if we can serve you better? Or if there’s any problems.” Yeah, you go meet with them and you find out, Oh, you could have been selling them $580,000 of stuff. That customer always exists in every… they’re like the needle in a haystack, but they’re in there and they’re not that hard to identify if you just pay attention.
Who are we not paying attention to? Right. You go to your… go through a list of your top 10 customers. Which one, which two of these are we never even talking to or they’re super easy and low maintenance, right? You get rid of the bad ones. Keep the good ones. Now, you didn’t have to go get any new customers. You didn’t have to hire any new salespeople.
Okay, then when you hire people… so I’ve got a client in Montana and he has a window cleaning company. Sid has this thing called the two week paid interview. When you get hired by Sid’s company, you’re not officially on the team for two weeks and you’re just in a trial period. And if it doesn’t work out, it’s no big deal. Hey, you don’t like me. I don’t like you. Things didn’t work out. Or you showed up when… hey, maybe this isn’t the job for you and we’re just done. You’re not hiring people… some expectation that they get a job for their whole life or anything like that. Okay?
But you need to hire slow and fire fast, and there’s somebody you need to fire and you’ve not been admitting it to yourself and you know it and they know it and they’re just hanging by their fingernails and they’re hoping the ax doesn’t fall, but you know you need to get rid of him and you know who they are. Plus there’s probably somebody else you’re less clear about, but they’re really not helping you out. And if you talk to customers, if you talk to the other employees, they’re actually causing more problems than they’re worth. All right, so now you’re not paying payroll to that person anymore. You can go from red to black or you can go from struggling with payroll to paying it no problem. This is always true and I’ve only scratched the surface, right? We haven’t opened up a Facebook account or a Google AdWords account. We haven’t opened any spreadsheets. We haven’t done a cost accounting on all your product lines or anything really detailed. I mean this is just surface dwelling stuff.
Ray: So what I’m hearing… and I do want to transition and just a moment. What I’m hearing on this part of the conversation is any part of my business, if I just enter into it, okay, with this conversation in mind of 80/20-
Perry: Yes. Yes.
Ray: I’m going to get tremendous insight on where I should and should not be investing time, energy, and resources. Did I capture that?
Perry: Yes. Because 1% of everything you’re doing is producing 50% of what you’re getting. What is the 1%? There’s a lot of stuff you don’t need to be doing. Most people are wasting at least, at least a third of their day, if not half doing stupid stuff. They’re doing $10 an hour work when they could be doing 100 or 1,000 or $10,000 an hour work.
Ray: And so Perry, just give a word of encouragement, just a word of encouragement to our audience. They’re followers of Christ. Maybe they’ve been listening and maybe something’s been said here that’s been an encouragement to them. But just give us one piece of advice that you would like our audience to take away from our conversation today or word of encouragement.
Perry: Okay. If you decide to go to the bottom of the swamp and solve problems at their roots and go after the real issues, then you are taking on the monsters of the world and it’s inevitable that at times that’s going to be a long lonely road. Okay. I promise you. Okay.
I can remember about oh, probably about six years ago, there was about a two year period. It was just brutal and everything was stacked against me. And I think when you… see, I think you can wait for God to test you or you can sort of voluntarily take on testing. Okay? And you can wait for God to whack you on the head and give you a big piece of correction or you can sort of take the burden on yourself proactively. And it doesn’t make it any easier. But I can tell you this, is that when you get through the trials, the rewards for solving problems at their roots are very, very, very great. Okay? And that’s why most people don’t get there. And that’s why the trials are so discouraging. Okay? You could be going through something that seems totally senseless and pointless. Well, maybe it is or it isn’t. But if you go through it, you gain authority. You gain spiritual authority. You just do. And you don’t know how that’s going to come useful in the future.
Ray: That’s awesome. Well, Perry, I just love… thank you for the time today. I could go on and on and on, but I’m going to ask you one more question. It’s kind of the trademark of our podcast. I asked this… 150 interviews to this point, I’ve asked it every single time and I call it my 4:23 question. It’s based out of Proverbs 4:23 where Solomon writes, “Above all else, guard your heart, for from it flows all of life.” So that was him summarizing, say, “Look, I’ve given you all this great stuff to think about and to live, but above all else, guard your heart. It’s the one thing I want you to remember.” So, Perry, let’s fast forward the clock. Let’s say you’re… it’s getting near the end of your time, this side of eternity here on earth, and you have a chance to leave behind to your family, to your friends the one piece of advice, like Curly back in, in the old movie, City Slickers, the one thing. So fill in the blank for us here at Perry. Above all else-
Perry: Start your day with the exercise of listening to God. Before you check email, get on the news, watch social media, preferably even before you interact with anybody. I call this Renaissance time. It is the best habit that I have ever cultivated in my life. It started about six years ago and I haven’t missed a day. Every morning, get out of bed, take a shower, cup of tea and sit down with a notebook and I ask questions and I listen. And I just write. I just free write. And if I’ve got a question, then that’s my time, that’s when I ask God the question and I write down whatever comes back without editing or anything. Okay?
And so what if we were instead of defining prayer as begging, pleading, groveling, asking for stuff, I’m trotting out all of your big problems, because we all got problems. Okay? What if we define prayer instead of prayer is opening up a space where you listen and not allowing all of the other noise in the world to crowd out until you’ve had a chance to listen and process some of that? Spiritually breathe, okay, and then that becomes you’ve put on your spiritual gladiator suit and then you go out in the world. That is the best habit that I have cultivated.
Ray: I love it.
Perry: Can I tell you a story about that?
Ray: Of course. Yes.
Perry: Are we going too long?
Ray: You’re fine. Let’s go. Let’s hear it.
Perry: Okay. Okay, so a couple of times a year I do this certain kind of workshop with just four people in the room for two days. And so I was doing one of these workshops and this guy, we’re at dinner the first night of the two day workshop and the guy says, “I had such a good time today. I didn’t think about my lawsuit all afternoon.” And I go, “Lawsuit?” He goes, “Oh nevermind. I don’t want to get into that.” So next morning I’m doing my Renaissance time with my notebook. Okay. So it was probably 6:00 or 6:30 in the morning. Everybody’s going to come at 9:00. And I go, “What should I talk about today in the workshop?” And the answer I get is, “Ask the guy about his lawsuit and talk to him about forgiveness and inner healing.”
Okay? So everybody shows up, 9:00. All right, housekeeping. We’re just about to get started. I look at my watch, it’s 9:20. I go, “Oh, I’m supposed to ask you about your lawsuit. Tell me about your last suit.” And he’s sitting there with his wife and he goes-
Ray: Here we go.
Perry: He goes, “Well, so I got this employee and they claim that I did something and I didn’t do it. But it’s their word against mine. And they left two years ago, but they filed a lawsuit and this thing has been hanging over my head for two years and I got lawyers and I’m terrified this thing’s going to go to trial. You never know how that could turn out.” And I said, “So there’s something I want you to do.” I said, “I would like you… this doesn’t isn’t going to make any logical sense, but I want you to forgive this person and tell God that you want him to do good things for them in their life, even though they’re trying to strangle you.” And he’s sitting there and his wife is sitting there, they kind of look at me like, okay, yeah, I get it. And they go, “Okay.”
And just then his phone buzzes. And I look at my watch and it’s 9:24. So we’ve been having this conversation for four minutes. And he goes, “My attorney wants me to call.” And I said, “Take the call. It’s good news.” And his wife goes, “It’s never good news when that guy calls. I said, “Take the call.” He leaves, he comes back 10 minutes later, he goes, “They want to settle and they’re willing to settle for $10,000 less than I decided I would be willing to pay two weeks ago.” He went home, he wrote a $120,000 check and it was over.
Ray: Yeah, yeah. Because God spoke to you in your Renaissance time.
Perry: Right. Now this had been going on for two years. Yes. So here’s a question for everybody listening. We’re going to draw a line on a piece of paper from 2011 to 2013, because I know the date that this happened. Okay? And in 2013 there is a four minute window from 9:20 to 9:24. And in the four minute window he forgave the person, and at 9:24 he gets the text from his attorney. Now my question you is, was that a coincidence or does forgiveness create a form of time travel and change the course of events? And was this just Perry’s imagination when he was with his notebook at 6:30 in the morning?
Ray: You have to convince me.
Perry: Or was there something there? Now I can’t answer that question for you. I can tell you how I answer it. I can tell you that once this has happened to you a couple of times, you now know that the world works this other way, and you know that things are connected in ways that you cannot see. Okay? And when you do life that way, it’s a lot more fun.
Ray: Yes, it is. Yes.
Perry: Because the universe is not just billiard balls bouncing around meaninglessly in a purposefulless universe. Okay? And the lawsuit may get canceled at 9:24 or it may not. I mean, I’ve certainly given other people that advice in their lives who didn’t get canceled. I can think of another guy. He’s still got a lawsuit. Okay? But again, it only has to happen a few times. It’s like, well, if this happens 10% of the time, that ain’t chance.
Ray: Yeah, that’s right. Well add the last thing I’d say, or add that is, even if that lawsuit didn’t get canceled, it was about what’s going on in that person’s heart, because you couldn’t put a price tag on the burden that he had been carrying for those years and just letting go of that is worth, whether the lawsuit went away or not, just that burden he was carrying. It was like a cancer. That’s good stuff. Perry thanks for being here. Can I come back some time?
Ray: Got a lot more to cover.
Perry: Sure. We’ll do a part two.
Ray: We’ll do a part two. Well folks, thanks for joining us today here at Bottom Line Faith. Wow, what a great example. This whole integration, eternal business, real life. We’ve had conversations from 80/20 and principles of growing your business and really honing in on how to identify the most important things to focus on and to grow and to get rid of. We’d love for you to check us out on Stitcher, iTunes, Google Play, all the podcast platforms. We’re out there. Recommend the program to your friends. Go online, give us positive reviews. We just love to hear the great comments coming back. So thanks again so much. And until next time, I am your host, Ray Hilbert, encouraging you to live out your faith each day in the marketplace. God bless. We’ll see you soon.