Overcoming Betrayal In Business With Rick Goossen
1:43 – My Background
3:23 – My True Passion
6:00 – Challenges I See
9:32 – The Dangers of Isolation
13:02 – Encouragement After Betrayal
19:54 – What Betrayal Looks Like
28:11 – The 423 Question
Rick is Chairman of the Advisory Board for Entrepreneurial Leaders Organization whose purpose is to connect, equip, and celebrate values-based entrepreneurs around the world. ELO has impacted approximately 100,000 people globally through its conferences and online resources. ELO has successfully held 30 events in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Winnipeg and Hong Kong. ELO is recognized by practitioners and academics around the world as the leading organization of its kind. He is Director, Entrepreneurial Leaders Institute, Wycliffe Hall, University of Oxford, which has launched the “Entrepreneurial Leaders Programme,” a one-week intensive & transformative experience to equip Christian marketplace and entrepreneurial leaders for exponential difference-making.Rick holds a PhD from Middlesex University (United Kingdom), a Master’s of Law from Columbia University, a Bachelor’s of Law from McGill University and a BA (Hons) (First Class) from Simon Fraser University.
He is Chairman of Entrepreneurial Leaders Organization and Director of Entrepreneurial Leaders Institute, Wycliffe Hall, University of Oxford. He has written six books and edited five books that which focused on entrepreneurship and leadership and have been translated in to multiple languages. He does public speaking and teaches courses on the soul of innovation, calling, and marketplace effectiveness around the world.Rick starts each day with prayer and strategic reflection. When not at work, he can be found spending time with his wife and four children. He is also an amateur barista, with minimal latte art skills, running home-based Rick’s Café for family, friends and guests.
Ray: Well, hello, everyone! This is your host, Ray Hilbert; We would like to welcome you back for another episode of the Bottom Line Faith program. And I am particularly excited about our guest on today’s program because–I’m not even sure he knows this yet, but–our guest today is the first international guest here at Bottom Line Faith. And calling in from Canada is my friend, and now your friend, Rick Goossen, who is an advisor with Covenant Family Wealth Advisors. He also has an amazing nonprofit organization called Entrepreneurial Leaders that we’re going to talk about today. So, Rick, we are so blessed, thank you for joining us here at Bottom Line Faith.
Rick: Well, I’m glad to be here, and, as they say, we’re neighbors divided by a common language.
Ray: I love it! Well, Rick, let’s jump right in. Tell us a little bit about you and your background, and and then I definitely want to get in–in just a few moments–to your nonprofit because you’re doing some amazing things to equip Christ-followers in business in the marketplace. But what would you like our listeners to know about yourself?
Rick: Well I think I have a somewhat unique background in that my parents were born in the Soviet Union in Mennonite colonies, and if people know their theology, Mennonites were part of the Anabaptist movement that originated in Europe in the 1520’s, and they focused on separation of church and state, things like that. So my parents were actually living in Mennonite colonies in the Soviet Union, emigrated after the war to Canada. So I grew up in a, in a very unique, a very positive, spiritual community–well, you know, a lot of very developed people. My parents being immigrants–that always shapes your view of the world. So I grew up as a first-generation Canadian. And so from a theological standpoint, I’ve always been used to thinking of Christians and your faith as presenting an alternative to the mainstream.
Then, professionally, my background is in law; I studied–one of the places I studied–was at Columbia Law School in the US. So I have a–partially–an American legal background. And I have a few diverse interests, so I’ve always combined legal and business activities along with writing, public speaking, and also you know teaching at colleges and at my church.
Ray: Well, so, like the Apostle Paul, you’ve got a great formal educational background and, as great as that is, your real passion is what? Just, just let us know right off the top what’s your real passion?
Rick: Yes! Well, that’s why I was excited to talk to you, Ray, because my passion is helping Christian entrepreneurs and family business owners be more effective difference-makers in their businesses in society and in nonprofits. So all the work that I do–so I work full-time at a place called Covenant family wealth advisors. And I do succession, transition planning, strategy will and estate planning for high-net-worth business owners all across Canada but we do it from a Christian perspective.
And then, secondly, what I do through Entrepreneurial Leaders Organization is to help connect, equip, celebrate, Christian marketplace leaders; and so those two come together quite well. And also what I teach on at my church is on calling what I write on as business’s mission and calling so really my passion is to empower Christian business leaders to be more effective in society. And I think the way society has changed, you know it’s interesting that–business leaders may not always realize this, but–Christian business leaders have a disproportionate amount of influence in their communities, because people respect the financial success.
Sometimes, mainstream people don’t really know what to make of a pastor. You know there, it’s is less common in our society to view the pastor as as like a community leader; It’s–maybe they’re viewed as more ,you know, within their community differently. But business leaders, people can relate to that. You know if you’re a business guy who’s got a high-tech company with 500 employees and you’re having an impact in the community
definitely people care what you think.
Ray: Well, I didn’t take long for me to draw that out from you in that you’re the, like, perfect guest here at Bottom Line Faith, because that’s what this program is all about, Rick, and I want to dive into some of those nuts and bolts and things that you’ve learned and expertise that you can bring to this conversation, because a large proportion of our audience they’re their business owners their high-capacity executives and they’re really trying to live out their faith in the marketplace and in this sphere of–a very unique sphere of– influence that God has given them. So in your dealing in your advising and serving and coming alongside as you described high-net-worth, high-capacity Christian business owners and executives in the marketplace, what are some of the challenges that you see them wrestling with when it comes to this whole concept or issue of faith, business’s mission, calling in the marketplace? Just kind of go down that pathway with us.
Rick: You know, despite my legal training, I’ll try to be uncharacteristically succinct. So when I, you know I’ve interviewed over 300 Christian entrepreneurs for research and work with a bunch of them, and I’d say some of the key issues are they feel isolated they don’t feel like they have support they don’t always feel equipped and they don’t always feel knowledgeable enough about how to apply their faith in the marketplace. So what I mean by that is often the successful Christian entrepreneur is a rarity within their church context.
So they don’t actually know anybody like them. So if I’m the person–the man or woman–who’s got a company with 50 100 employees and I’ve and I’ve you know mortgaged my house to the hilt and I’ve got personal guarantees and I’m taking all this risk and I’m striving to build this company, there’s probably not a lot of people in my church who kind of can can really relate to that.
So what I found is that some of these business people they feel isolated and then they withdraw and then they don’t have anybody they can share their concerns with. And, often, they don’t have… Like I talked to so many business people who say–I just met a guy yesterday for lunch who said the same thing–”I wish I had a mentor;” “Oh I could have used the mentor when I was younger.”
So people you know they feel isolated that’s a problem. They they don’t always have the experience to withstand issues that come up.So, as an example, out of the 300 plus people that I’ve interviewed I asked this one very general question, which is, “What was your lowest moment”, and it’s a very broad question. The most common response is, “I have been betrayed. I’ve been betrayed by somebody very close to me.” And, often, it’s another believer, but then people like you know Christians in business, what happens is they feel sort of stupid because you know I’ve been betrayed by somebody, and, of course, betrayal is not just getting ripped off, it’s actually getting ripped off by somebody you put your trust in who now has violated that trust. So that’s a huge challenge for virtually all Christian business people that they’ve been let down by others. And so how do you deal with that? Well, when you’re in isolation what ends up happening is you think, “I’m the only person that’s ever happened to.” So, therefore, you don’t share it with anybody and you don’t really deal with it and it may turn you off quite a bit may cause you to go into a shell.
Meanwhile, I’ve seen through my research that that’s happened to almost all Christian business people and if we could have people communicating learning from the experience and then also mentoring others in terms of you know what to expect as a believer in a business context that can that could really help fortify people’s faith going forward.
Ray: That is so powerful and I want to stay parked here just for a couple of moments, Rick, because the playground where Satan seems to defeat Christians is in this area of isolation. He picks them off when they’re not in community, when they don’t have fellowship and accountability. And you know I can’t speak for you, Rick, I just know in my own prayer life, sometimes I don’t know if I’m hearing from the Holy Spirit or if it’s last night’s pizza. You know if it’s indigestion, right? And so I need I need that fellowship I need that community I need that encouragement to help me discern what God may be up to in a given situation. Is that kind of what you’re talking about around this isolation issue?
Rick: You know, Ray, that’s such a great point because I always think of these these crazy animal videos where you see the lions who are tracking the wildebeest, and the ones that get picked off are the ones that get isolated from the herd.
Rick: And I think it’s so true in the Christian community and and that’s why you know what I’m doing through Entrepreneurial Leaders Organization is you know we have these events and we emphasize the fellowship’s important, they’re connecting with other believers, sharing with other people who had the same experience because what happens is when you can’t process what’s happened to you, you know, you can become bitter, your faith can start to erode. And so it’s so important to you know have that fellowship and work through it. And I think, yeah, I think that is you know the devil’s strategy, so to speak that if you isolate people then it’s you know it’s like though however whatever analogy the embers and the fire, but you know it the lights going to go out when you’re on your own. And and so what I find is Christian business leaders really crave that fellowship.
But I think that’s why you know the events that we have and I’m sure the events that you have it works so well is because people can be in fellowship with other believers and can relate to them share that experience. And, you know what, if they had known each other before and were able to bounce things off one another and and work through it they would have been way better off faith-wise. But, you know, what typically happens is, you know it, churches have a lot of commitments obligations and it’s quite difficult for a businessperson to connect with a pastor in relation to business issues. So what I found is the pastors who do best with business people, they actually have a business background. Yeah you know they may have been in industry for 10 years and then they went to a pastor. But the average pastor they can be you know sympathetic and listening but you can’t expect the pastor to know everything. And so where do these business people go? Well, they really should be connecting with peers who can help them work through these types of situations.
Ray: So I’m gonna share a conversation that I had just yesterday with a business owner. She was saying, “You know, I had a person in my company that I shared something very personal about what was going on in my family. And I asked that it would be in confidentiality, and that person betrayed me and broke confidentiality. And so now many people in my company know about this issue in my family.”So she says, “I have now vowed that I am just not going to bring anything personal into the business and I’m not going to have a culture or an environment where we ever cross that line between the personal and the business.” And, I was trying to be very sensitive to her story in her situation and I says, “Well, candidly, I’m sorry for your pain and your brokenness in that, but what you experienced was an imperfect, broken person; But that is not the biblical model as a Christ follower in business. We can’t separate business and personal life in those things; God has created us as holistic people so you got to figure out how to work through that and so forth. But, Rick, what I’d like to ask you to do is right now there probably is a business owner or a high-capacity leader who has experienced what you’re describing here, this whole issue of betrayal and there’s hurt there, there’s anger, there’s resentment, whatever. What would you say to encourage that Christ-follower in moving forward?
Rick: Yeah that’s a great point I think like a lot of things we learn in life I think we have to look at what are the spiritual lessons I can take away from the experience. So one aspect is this whole notion of forgiveness. You know as we all know if we don’t forgive we’re gonna carry the bitterness and then carrying the bitterness, well–and this is quite interesting–it will poison the well for other situations that might be more positive. So it’s quite fascinating let’s say you know we should share with others, have the fellowship, but let’s say, unfortunately, the person that you shared with broke that confidence. You know that doesn’t mean it was a bad idea to share it, it just is unfortunate that that person broke the confidence. But then what I find happens is if for other people you meet and develop good relationships with when you don’t open up with them because of your bad past experience then you’re actually limiting the scope of your relationship with the future people that you meet.
So I think the concept of the fellowship they’re sharing–the confidentiality–confiding in people is important and should be done, but it…you know we do we just have to be so careful. So I say the encouraging thing is you know there are lots of really great people out there, who do hold confidence and maybe it’s a matter of just getting to know people well enough where you feel comfortable doing that. At the same time when it has happened and you know I’ve been betrayed almost everybody I know has had a betrayal happen to them. And then you process it and go you know what… It’s like they say it’s the double loss. If if once you’ve been betrayed if you maintain the bitterness okay now it’s a double loss. It happened and now you’re carrying it with you. Well you just gotta move on. And it’s tough but I think that’s what we have to do. And whenever things happen I always look in the mirror.
And so you know I don’t want to blame others, or even the person who betrayed me because these things have happened to me and I thought okay well what can I learn? Well okay I have to be more careful.
And you know the reality is what I’ve learned… I had this one–he was actually a billionaire–and he said, “The more successful I became, the smaller my circle became. So I I could I was always so suspicious or skeptical of people’s motives, even people who appear to have my best interest at heart.” Can you imagine? He says, “When I
became…” He– he reached billionaire status, and the only people he could confide in were his wife and adult kids.
Rick: And I’m… so… you just… you know… And I always think of the verse Matthew 10:16, you know, “Wise as the serpent, innocent as a dove.” You know… you know as Christians, it doesn’t mean we can’t be wise and careful. And… and I’d say also to this person like if you have been betrayed I go, you know join the club. It’s probably the world’s biggest club.
Rick: So don’t think that you’re not a smart person don’t think you did something stupid well we’ve all done stupid things. We’ve all made mistakes; we all wish we could take things back; All we can really do is process it, learn from it, and just move on and that’s that.
Ray: Well, you’re touching base on something there Rick that I think is one of the things I just, frankly, I love about studying Jesus and His model. He understood betrayal, right? And we see on the night of His betrayal He’s He’s saying to Judas, you know, “I know what you’re gonna do, just go do it quickly get it over with and then he meets up with him again and Judas gives him a kiss to, you know, indicate who Jesus was in the garden. And you can just see in that moment Jesus knew the betrayal was coming, and yet he chose to love anyway. And He knew that Peter was gonna deny Him, He knew the disciples were going to deny Him; He knew that betrayal was part of obedience, and yet it didn’t get him off mission. And that’s what I’m hearing that you’re you’re describing. Am I.. am i hitting it right there?
Rick: Yeah, no, that’s it. And I think this relates to this whole question of Christians in the marketplace. I always ask myself how do we think of our faith as we enter the marketplace? And I always think good theology leads to good practice of ethics in the marketplace. So for example we should go into the marketplace thinking you know what, there will be people who want to rip us off there will be people who betray us. Not everything will work out; We won’t all make a make a fortune; We may be blessed in different ways. And that’s the that’s the nature of the marketplace. So then we go into it with the attitude of okay as a believer I want to have an impact regardless of what happens to me it’s how I handle things. So how can we handle betrayal from a Christian standpoint? I know from a non-Christian standpoint the first reaction of people is vengeance. Okay I’m gonna make that person pay; I got to get that person back. there’s no matter how long it takes, I’m getting that person back. Well you know what when you have a testimony it’s quite interesting from a Christian standpoint there’s probably other people who can observe what’s going on and they’ll see how you you interact with the person who betrayed you.
Now what I’ve learned is the truth comes out in the wash, but sometimes it can take years and I’d say even decades for people to see oh you know what that person was getting maligned and bad-mouthed and positioned a certain way as if they cheated and did this and that, you know what, it actually wasn’t true. May not always come out but in the next week or two, but over time it comes out. So all you can do is continue to you know live the right way, live out your faith, practice good ethics, and and just keep moving on. But don’t let it get you off on a rabbit trail where you’re now in a sense operating at that same level. Like you know like the takeaway would not be, “Well, okay then, I’m now going to betray someone else,” right? No, no, just it treat it as, “Okay, this happened, I’ve got to move on, but I’ve got to stick to my standards.”
Ray: Well, Rick, I got to tell you one of the things I love that I get to do here and hosting this program at Bottom Line Faith is every guest like yourself brings a unique topic and issue or a perspective. And I don’t know in the roughly you know 80 to 90 episodes of Bottom Line Faith that we’ve recorded to this point, I genuinely think this is the first conversation we’ve had focused around this issue of betrayal. And I’ve seen it too. I’ve dealt with Christian business owners myself for over 20 years and boy it is it is I can’t think of a situation where that hasn’t been part of their journey. I am gonna have to have you back because there’s so many other questions and so many other topics I want to explore with you. But I think this is really important because I I really think there’s somebody listening right now that has some hardness in their heart they have some unforgiveness, and fear has set in and it’s keeping them from pursuing that next relationship or that next opportunity, okay.
So, could you share maybe a story or an example of how you’ve seen betrayal hinder a Christ-follower in business and then maybe how you saw them overcome that or come to a point of healing and restoration? Does anything come to mind, any situation?
Rick: You know what, what I’m just trying to think. There’s a whole compendium of people who would spring to mind. But there’s situations like you know a guy starts a company he builds it up brings in a trusted advisor and then that trusted adviser starts to think they’re sort of the key for success and then the owner/founder goes away on a holiday, and then the person who’s second in command engineers sort of a bit of a scheme to get people on his side you know take the client list and set up around the corner. And then basically undermine the company of the founder. Now when the founder gets back the whole thing blows up. But what I found in this in this one case is a guy with a printing company you know that happened to him. And what he did is he just had to you know cut ties with that guy. The guy took the client list tried to set up on his own, ended up not working. Meanwhile, you know his business went down, and then he just sort of built it back up over time at the end of the day did well. You know survived and thrived, but the way he dealt with the person who betrayed him wasn’t in a vindictive way. It was basically dealt with it non-legally just cut ties, took his lumps, and just moved on.
You know it’s interesting because in our society of course you know and I’m a lawyer by background you know in our society the common reaction is, “Well I’m gonna sue.” Which not to say it’s not Christian to sue somebody, but as we know often going the legal path is costly and time-consuming and in many ways brings out the worst in people right you’re drawing your battle lines and you’re making all sorts of wild accusations hoping that you’ll reach some middle ground. So the ability to just sort of move on and focus on the positive building up the business and a testimony, you know that would be the way you know to handle it. It’s not, it’s definitely not easy, but that would be the you know the best way forward.
Ray: Yeah I’m thinking out of Philippians where Paul says you know, “Whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is excellent, whatever is praiseworthy, whatever is right and noble; fix your thoughts on these things.” So we have a choice when betrayal occurs. We can dwell there and as you were saying conjure up all kinds of schemes and strategies to respond to the betrayal. Or we can do what Paul says, let’s fix our thoughts on moving forward, growing, getting better, impacting the marketplace. That to me seems to be where spiritual maturity enters the equation. Am I gonna hold on to the past or am I gonna look to the future? I mean I you know I don’t know if you agree with that, but or would offer any comment on that.
Rick: Well yeah I agree and of course somebody listening might say well that sounds great in theory but you know in reality isn’t quite isn’t quite so simple. And I and I would say I agree a hundred percent because you know when betrayal happens… And it’s really interesting because betrayal, as I mentioned earlier, is different than just getting ripped off. Your betrayal is usually very personal because it’s: “I put my trust in someone who ripped me off.” And then what happens is is–this this happened to me too–then you think, “Okay, well how could I be so stupid not to see that coming?” It’s embarrassing; It ruins a lot of relationships; It can be very very messy because the betrayal can happen you know maybe among family members, among friends. I’ve had clients who is it was the deacon in the church who ripped them off. You know the Lord Lord led them to steal his client list and and all these things that you would think you “You’ve got to be kidding me!” And that’s where it gets so messy. You know it’s different if somebody you know if you did work for someone. “Okay, you owe me a thousand bucks, you won’t pay me.” It’s some random guy in your community. Well okay it’s not good but it that’s not a betrayal that’s just you know getting ripped off. But betrayal is: No, this person I know them, and their family, and their parents, and the whole bit and I’m going to keep seeing them for the next twenty, thirty years of my life. Okay, that that is where it gets very messy. And so then to you know hold your head high and go, “You know, despite all the noise and and and sort of negativity, I’m just gonna focus on doing the right thing, just keep moving forward.” That’s definitely not easy to do, but I think that’s where the fellowship of others comes in because… The thing that always occurs to me is I think, “Well how would that how would somebody else deal with this?” Because a lot of times when you’re going into uncharted territory… you know so let’s say–hopefully you don’t get betrayed too many times in your life, but when it does happen it’s often the first time that that’s ever happened to you so then you don’t really… there’s there’s no manual on how to deal with it. I mean there’s the Bible but I mean just in terms of the practicalities most people are sideswiped. They think, “Oh wow. What? I almost can’t believe this.” And you’re a bit disoriented and then you have to figure out how to handle it. But typically you don’t… You know when it happened to me I didn’t know anybody else who went through this and I felt stupid so I didn’t… wasn’t exactly talking to anybody about it. You just muddled through. But looking back the advice I would give the people is–I heard this in church just this last Sunday, you know it’s a great comment–Build your support network before you need it; because if you have a challenge and you start looking for a support network at that time, well, you can’t get instant friends. So let’s say if you’re in a group with other business owners/leaders, and you’re regularly–you know whether it’s weekly monthly–connecting with people, then when something comes up then you know who to talk to about it and you probably get a lot of good advice.
And especially for younger people who you know I always think the mentoring is so important you know there’s people in their 40s, 50s, 60s who maybe seen it a few times, but you can also pass on that knowledge to people in their 20s and 30s so that they can anticipate things and be ready you know when it comes. And then I think it builds your faith rather than undermines it.
Ray: That may be the quote of the year for me: “Build your support network before you need it.” Rick, that’s that’s phenomenal. That is really strong, right? Because once it’s happened it may be too late or the consequences may be so great to overcome so that’s, that’s fantastic.
Ray: I cannot believe this; We’re near the end of our time together, so we’re gonna have to have you back.
Rick: I told you I was… Ray, I warned you I was longwinded, and that’s my legal training.
Ray: That’s alright. That’s alright. this has been exceptional. Rick, why don’t you share what is the website that would be best for our listeners to learn more about what you’re doing? I think this is fantastic.
Rick: Yeah, unfortunately, it’s sort of a long long domain name but it’s entrepreneurial leaders dot com and we have lots of resources for Christian marketplace leaders and we hold events and we’ve got different videos and information on the website. But it’s entrepreneurial leaders dot com or if somebody just Google’s my name, Richard Goossen there or Rick Goossen, and there’ll be lots of stuff that comes up.
Ray: And that is spelled, G, O, O–there’s two O’s in there–S, S, E, N.
Ray: So fantastic. Well I’m down to the one question that I ask every single guest here at Bottom Line Faith. It’s what we call our “423 question.” And it’s based out of Proverbs chapter 4, verse 23. Solomon writes these words, he says, “Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.” So, Rick, what I’d like to do is, I’d like to just paint a scenario here and say it’s towards the tail end of your time this side of eternity, and you have a chance to gather your family, your friends, your loved ones, and you’re gonna get to pass along the single most important piece of advice, like, your “above all else” advice. So what I’d like you to do is just fill in the blank for us and answer this question: What would be your “above all else advice”?
Rick: So, my epitaph I’d like to be, “Live your calling.” So, for me, “He lived his calling.” So to me for Christian marketplace leaders for any Christian I believe they have to focus on their calling and live it right till their dying day. In particular, I think it’s so important to focus on that so that you can finish well. But I see with a lot of successful business people is they don’t finish well. And it’s really interesting that Solomon made that comment because–and we cover it in one of one of my books–Solomon did not finish well. His mind is… He was turned away from God because of all the foreign concubines and wives. I think in total it was 1200 or something crazy like that. So Solomon himself didn’t finish well. So I think the key thing for Christian business leaders is to focus on your calling, live out your calling, be clear on your calling, and then, finish strong right to the end. So if somebody out there is, say you’re 60 years old, you shouldn’t be thinking, “Oh I’ve got five years left until I retire.” Instead, you should think, “You know what, statistically, I probably have 25 years left. I need to have a 25-year game-plan from age 60 to 85, how I’m going to finish strong.” And that’s where you have the biggest impact for testimony because a lot of people in that age bracket you know they may be married they may have kids and we have grandkids. And that’s where you’re gonna do something to create a great legacy. So for those people who taper off at the end… You know it’s a big challenge for business people because if you’ve worked hard and you’ve made money, well, now you can be spending all that money you know in the so-called “golden years”. But the reality is those “golden years” can be the years where you have you could have a bigger impact in the last quarter of your life than you did in the previous three quarters.
Ray: So I wrote just the summation of that is, “Live your calling and finish well.” That’s your “above all else” counsel.
Rick: You’re far more succinct than I am, Ray.
Ray: No, that’s that’s hey that’s why they pay me the big bucks here, Rick, to host Bottom Line Faith.
Rick: Exactly! Exactly. I speak for five minutes and you go, “So what you’re saying was, ‘Live your calling’. Uh, yeah, sorry, I think I took five minutes to explain all that.
Ray: Well, listen when I’m when I’m at home you know and my kids or my wife asked me something quite often I’ll hear, “Hey Dad I asked you what time it was not how they built a watch,” so I get it, okay. So I just want to say, thank you for your investment of time today here with us at Bottom Line Faith. And B, even more importantly, thank you for your obedience in living out your calling and finishing well in serving Christ-followers in the marketplace, so thank you on both accounts.
Rick: Well I appreciate it and it’s been a real pleasure speaking with you.
Ray: Well folks there you have it check out Rick and go to his website that is entrepreneurial leaders dot-com. You can… great resources there Rick and his team is making available to you to check out their events videos articles and such that they have available to you. We are so very grateful that you’ve joined us on today’s episode here at Bottom Line Faith. I trust that this topic of overcoming betrayal as a Christian in business has spoken to many of you out there. And what you can do for us is it would be awesome if you would go to your podcast platform, whether that’s iTunes or Google Play or Stitcher or whatever it is, provide a review for today’s conversation. That’s what helps us to grow this ministry at Bottom Line Faith, it’s what helps us get the word out. The more reviews we get the more exposure we get and so I want to thank you for that.
Rick talked a lot today in the conversation about isolation and and I love this statement that he shared, “Build your support network before you need it.” One way that you can do that as a Christ follower is get involved with a group a peer advisory group. there are many models available. Check out truth at work dot org. Click on the tab there called round tables and you can learn about tapping into a chapter in your local community. We also have virtual groups where you can connect through technology with other Christ-followers around the area as well. So I want to thank you for joining us today on the program here at Bottom Line Faith. And so until next time I am your host, Ray Hilbert, encouraging you to faithfully live out your calling in the marketplace. God bless and we’ll see you next time.