1:36– What do you do as a Senior Portfolio Manager and Chief Equity Strategist?
3:29– My background
6:55– What was it about those early days that helped shape you and show you this was a viable path for your career?
8:37– At what point did you really see the connection between this career in finance and your faith?
12:41– How have you come to a clarity of keeping the main thing the main thing–that you are serving God and not the financial markets or the things of this world?
15:22– A word on generosity
17:38– What are some daily best practices that would best demonstrate you living out your faith in the marketplace?
21:08– What is the hardest decision you’ve faced in your career? And what role did your faith play in that decision?
23:18– A time when I lost my job for sharing my faith…
25:33– What is one thing God revealed about Himself during that season? And what is one thing you learned about yourself?
27:00– What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given? And how does that impact you today?
28:00– What piece of advice do you wish you would’ve gotten in the first year in following your career pathway?
29:27– The 4:23 Question
As Chief Equity Strategist and Senior Portfolio Manager at Nuveen Asset Management, Bob manages the Large Cap Equity Series, consisting of nine strategies. Prior to joining Nuveen Asset Management in 2012, Bob held similar roles at other large asset management firms, including serving as Chief Equity Strategist at Blackrock, President and Chief Investment Officer of Merrill Lynch Investment Managers (MLIM) and Chief Investment Officer of OppenheimerFunds, Inc.
Bob has 35 years of portfolio management experience, received a B.S. in Accounting and a B.A. in Economics from Lehigh University and an M.B.A. from the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He is a Certified Public Accountant and a Chartered Financial Analyst. Bob appears regularly on CNBC, Bloomberg TV, and Fox Business News discussing the economy and markets. Bob and his wife Leslie live in Princeton, New Jersey and have three children. Bob is the choir director at his local church.
Ray: Well Hello everyone. This is Ray Hilbert. I am your host here at Bottom Line Faith. This is the program where we like to lift the hood and tinker around in the engine of Christian leadership in the marketplace. We have a chance to interview some of the most amazing guests across the country who are effectively leading with their faith and living out their faith in the marketplace. And I have to tell you, folks; I am very excited about our guest today. We have been looking forward to this conversation for many months. I met this gentleman now almost two years ago. We’re going to speak today with Bob Doll. He is the Senior Portfolio Manager and Chief Equity Strategist at Nuveen Asset Management. He is joining us on the line from Princeton, New Jersey. Bob, we’re going to learn all about you today, but welcome to Bottom Line Faith.
Bob: Thank you, Ray. Privilege and an honor to be with you and your audience.
Ray: You know, we had a chance to meet about two years ago, introduced by a mutual friend of ours who, a gracious and godly man who has since gone on to be home with the Lord. But Bob, tell us about your role, what you do as a Senior Portfolio Manager and Chief Equity Strategist. Help a little simple Hoosier boy like me understand what God’s calling you to do in the marketplace?
Bob: Certainly. So my role all my career, my primary role has been to manage money. In particular, large-cap equities, in mutual fund and separate format for several different organizations. My job is to do better than the indexes and beat the competition obviously. My secondary job is to raise assets in those same products, Ray. And my third job, which is where people see me most often, but it takes the least amount of my time, and that is represent the firm in the marketplace, about the markets, financial television and other media and in front of clients and so on. So that’s my job. I’ve had various leadership roles along the way, including running the organization, but they were the three consistent things through my career.
Ray: Well, thank you. That is really excellent. I know I personally have seen you on networks such as CNBC, Bloomberg TV, Fox Business News. God has really given you an amazing platform to represent him in the marketplace, hasn’t he?
Bob: Yes, he has. And that’s also an honor and a privilege. I feel like I’m right where God wants me, called, as you said in the introduction, to this particular profession, but to use it as a platform to speak for him in various ways. And so I, you know, get out of bed every morning, raring to go and try to make a difference for the Lord.
Ray: Amen. Amen. And so, Bob, we’re going to learn kind of in a little bit here, your, your leadership, how that you live out your faith in the marketplace, and so forth. But would you take just a couple of moments here and give us some framework, give us some background a little bit about your early childhood, and then, of course, your education and maybe a little bit about those early days of your career?
Bob: Sure. So I was born and raised in the Philadelphia area to two loving parents, Christians, so I was born into and grew up in a Christian home. Of course, we all know that does not make one a Christian, but it certainly increases the probability to you’re exposed to the things of God and come to that moment in time where you trust Jesus as Savior and commit to following Him as Lord. And that was my upbringing. I grew up in a row home in Philadelphia and have two younger sisters. I went on to Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, spent a couple of years in public accounting between undergraduate and graduate school, Ray, and went to the University of Pennsylvania, got my MBA and it was during that timeframe that I found the stock market and felt this is for me, and been killing that ever since. I’ve worked for City Corporate Investment Management in New York City for seven years, the Oppenheimer funds in New York City for 12 years, and then Merrill Lynch Asset Management, which was bought by Black Rock. The span of those two organizations was 13 years. And now I’m in year six at Nuveen. Again, back to the beginning, managing large-cap US equities, the whole way along. Started out as a research analyst before becoming a portfolio manager, and I think in lots of fields, doing research to really understand the field is foundational to have a shot at being successful at the other parts of those professions. I suspect you would agree.
Ray: Thank you; that is very helpful. And so Bob, you talked about growing up in a home and environment with two parents who loved the Lord. And obviously, that gave you that foundation. But was there a moment or a time in your life where it kind of like moved from being your family’s tradition, your family’s belief system, that it became real and very personal to you, your faith in Jesus Christ?
Bob: I know there was, but I couldn’t tell you when it was because I was a young child. I can’t remember a day where I wouldn’t have called Jesus Christ my Savior. So it obviously happened at some point way back when, sir.
Ray: Well, I tell you that you just modeled and demonstrated what my prayer is for my kids is that someday they’ll say, there was never a time I didn’t know that I was walking with Christ. So often, we cling on to those powerful transitional testimonies from addiction or devastation to Christ. And we forget how beautiful this testimony is that you’re describing. You’ve never not known Jesus as best you can tell. Is that correct?
Bob: Exactly. So, you know, while it’s, while we have our ups and downs in the faith, it is certainly wonderful to look back, and I didn’t have to go through some of those things like addictions for the Lord to gets my attention. So I’m grateful and thankful for that.
Ray: That’s, that’s terrific to hear. So if you don’t mind, and I want to kind of transition back to your story. You came out of college, and you went, you got your MBA and those things, and you said you fell in love with the stock market and all. What was it about those early days that really helped shape you and you understanding that this was really a legitimate and viable pathway for your work and career. Tell us about that?
Bob: Sure. So I guess I’d say it this way. Between undergraduate school and graduate school having known nothing about the stock market, or even that it existed, I was dating a girl whose father invested in the stock market. And I was so fascinated, and I asked a lot of questions, and I started doing some reading, so that when I went to graduate school, I was prepared to say, this is the direction that I’m heading. And there was confirmation after confirmation. I guess maybe I also say it this way, Ray: what fascinates me about being an investor in the stock market is you see your score in the newspaper every day, so there’s that element of competition. It is multi-dimensional. There’s economics; there’s politics; there’s mathematics; there’s psychology; it’s a multi-disciplinary field. And of course, there’s something new every day. No day is the same as before, because the world is moving before you and some stocks are moving up, and some stocks are moving down. So there’s a constant fascination that takes place for those of us who’ve been I’ll use the word infected by the stock market.
Ray: And so as you kind of reflect back over what, 35 years roughly, in this industry, is that about, right?
Bob: Yes, sir.
Ray: So at what point did you begin to really, and maybe you did from day one, but at what point did you really begin to see that connection between this career and work and things that you were passionate about in finance and the markets that you’re describing, and your faith? Where did that intersection first become a reality for you?
Bob: You know, that developed over time, and it was it was slow. I remember for years, working in New York City, living in Princeton, New Jersey, commuting on the train in between. And so in effect, Ray I had two lives. Not that I lived differently, but two spheres of people and activities. One was home, wife, family, church, community activities, friends, and the other was 50 miles away in New York City, was work and all that’s associated with that, and the two had little to do with one another, although I was the same person. I remember asking questions of myself when those sorts of things, where it really came to the fore. And I recognize that it is one life we live, not two, was I took a job at that happened to be located in Princeton, New Jersey, working for Merrill Lynch. And that was multiple years into my career. And the first job I had, once I became CEO of that organization was to cut $700 million of expenses. That was a tall order. The first couple hundred were easy because we were a little fat, dumb, and happy if you will. The next 300 we worked hard at; the last 200 felt like we were cutting the bone and the muscle out of the place. But nevertheless, I was working and living in the same place. And I’ll never forget, of course, when you’re cutting costs in the investment management business, you’re laying off people. And I’ll never forget a Saturday softball game that my son was playing in, and the opposing pitcher was the son of a guy I had fired. And you know, a lot of lessons came from that, as you can imagine. And that is a time when my spirit was awakened to say, Sunday and Monday are all the same. God has created us for life. He’s not created us for two different parts of life. And that began my integration of faith and work story.
Ray: So as you were watching this ballgame, and the son of a gentleman you had to terminate was on the other team, what thoughts were you going through? What emotions and how did that specifically awaken the spiritual side of your work?
Bob: At that point, it didn’t awaken the spiritual side, necessarily. What it awakened was my recognition that life is integrated. And it was over the ensuing years that I realized and did some study on this sort of thing. That everything we do is an act of worship to God. Much of my upbringing and my early adult years, you know, I worshiped on Sunday, and I worked hard the rest of the week. I came to learn and somewhat more fully understand today that everything I do is an act of worship of God. God made us to work because he’s a worker and he made us in His image, and as a result, we’re to be workers. And then further, God was, last I checked as I look out the window at the beauty of his creation, he’s an excellent worker, and we’re to be excellent workers to because we’re made in His image. And all those lessons slowly but surely came to the fore. And now I view life as totally integrated.
Ray: Boy, that is very, very well put. And so I maybe want to just dabble a little bit in maybe some like church controversial worldview here. And, and I’ll explain what I mean by that. So we hear about it very clearly in the Bible. It says no one can serve two masters, you know, man, and, and the Lord or Mammon and the Lord and those sorts of things. So for you, as a man who is clearly successful, even by the world standards in the financial markets, financial leadership, how have you come to clarity of keeping the main thing, the main thing? In other words, that you’re serving God and not the financial markets and not the things of this world? Because I’m sure there are some along the way, they would say, you know, you can’t do that.
Bob: Yes. So, so, needless to say, in the business I’m in, there’s a lot of money floating around, right. And a lot of this, well, maybe not a lot of us, at least me, I earned, I’m sorry, I was paid more money than I earned. It’s a lucrative business and yeah, temptation around money, etc, etc. is always there. And of course, I saw all kinds of good and not so good examples. As I look back over the years, I was busy working and climbing the corporate ladder, and my wife was busy bringing up our kids. And we didn’t have a consumption problem. We could have given our income; we had a savings problem. We woke up one day; there was a corporate event; and my wife said, I wonder how much we’re worth in dollars and cents terms. And when she told me I couldn’t believe it. And that woke us up to say, oh my goodness, we’re not being good stewards. We may not have, you know, the home that we could have with our income or the lifestyle but we’re putting that money in barns and we quickly learned, having been givers, to be generous givers. And that helped us recognize that part of why God’s put me in this profession is to not only speak for him but also to give for him and that’s been a wonderful lesson and a mammoth blessing.
Ray: Well, I love that. And so it sounds like that God really moved you along in that journey. So what would you say to someone who’s listening right now, and I loved how you said that and I may not be able to repeat it word for word, but the way I heard it was, you didn’t necessarily have a consumption problem. You just really hadn’t yet understood the opportunity for generosity that you had been given, and then God awakened that part in your heart. So what would you say? First of all, did I reflect that accurately, Bob?
Bob: Yes, yes, yes you did.
Ray: Okay. So let’s just assume that somebody’s listening to the conversation that you and I are having right now. You know, they’re driving down the road, they’ve got their mobile device on or what have you. And maybe they’re thinking or come to the conclusion. Yeah, I’m not really materialistic, and I could afford to live in a bigger house, I could afford to have a nicer car, or take more extravagant vacations. What encouragement would you give them in terms of searching their heart? And what questions would you ask them to ask themselves and have the Lord to give them insight on this generosity thing?
Bob: The first thing that pops into mind is lessons that I learned when I was young, I had a daily newspaper route, and my parents taught me to give of the earnings from that paper route 10% to the church. Parenthetically, save 80% for college, and there’s where the savings came, came into it. And spend 10% on yourself. And that’s exactly what I did. I wouldn’t say there was a lot of joy in that giving, but it was just a check the box exercise. It became a habit and habits can be good habits or bad habits. That was a good habit; the joy came later. So that’s a long-winded way of saying we were tithers all the way along, but some people are called to double tithe, some are call to give 50% away, some are called in really, really big years of earning to be reverse tithers, and we’ve had all those experiences. And I guess I would say to your direct question, recognize, as I did later than I would have liked to, that none of it’s mine in the first place. It’s all God’s. Everything we have is God’s, not just the money that he enables us to earn, but the bodies that we use, including the brains that we use to earn the money that we have. I remember one guy said, but Bob, but I worked hard; I worked hard for this money. But who gave you the brains to work hard, etc., etc.? So again, long-winded way of saying the lesson to learn is it’s all his in the first place. So I’ve learned the question is not how much that give; the question is, how much should I keep? Because it’s all God’s.
Ray: That is really good. Bob, you’re walking us through this journey that God has had you on? We talked about your educational background, your walk with Christ, and then this awakening of really that integration of faith and work and then eventually the awakening of this whole spirit of generosity. And so as you think about like, on a day to day basis, and the marketplace mission field that God has called you to in the financial markets, what are some best practices today? Now, in this stage in your journey, that would demonstrate or model you living out your faith in the marketplace? What what’s that look like?
Bob: I put it in three categories off the top of my head. One, just having a godly attitude, trying to be like Christ in the way I interact with people. And the way I go about my business. To exhibit the fruit of the Spirit maybe is a good way to put it. Of course, I don’t get it perfectly right. But the people notice those things, as you well know, and sometimes ask. The second thing that came to mind was a practice I started a bunch of years ago when you know; I’ve been praying, Lord, give me the chance to share my faith with fill in the blank, Johnny. And those opportunities just didn’t happen. And I realized I was trying to find an event rather than just making it part of life. So two things I consciously did. One, when someone says on Monday morning, how was your weekend? What did you do, which is a common thing in the workplace?
Yeah, I just, I usually answer the question with the things that I did different from usual. I decided I was going to say; I did this, this, this and I went to church. I remember one time someone asked me that question two Mondays in a row. And when I said, and I went to church the second time, he said, but you went to church last week. Do you go to church every week? That created an opportunity for wonderful conversation. The other thing I did, particularly when I was CEO of the asset management business, I mentioned before is that I deliberately said to somebody, if they came into my office with problems, which they routinely did, as they left, I said, I will pray for you.
Occasionally, I got the head that flipped around, kind of looked at me. If they came a second time, Ray, I would say, can I pray for you now? You know, no one ever said no. So back to praying for an opportunity to share my faith with Johnny, here’s now Johnny sitting in my office with a problem. I’m about to pray for him and talk to the Lord I want to introduce him to. What a wonderful thing.
Ray: And those were just relationships that you didn’t have to go to the other side of the earth to find or even the other side of your city. Those are right there in your office. And that was the mission field that you very clearly have discovered God’s placed you in; is that, is that right?
Bob: Exactly right. So it’s the attitudes. It’s the saying it in the way since I did simple ways. The third thing that came to mind was because of the platform I have, as I say to my kids, 15 minutes of fame. Mine happens to be in the financial world, and financial television. So business folks who watch that; they know who I am. So when it’s time to go speak at a conference somewhere about something to do with faith, those people might come. Oh, Bob Doll is coming to speak, and there’s my chance to tell them directly about Jesus.
Ray: And folks, I’ve had a chance to hear Bob on two occasions, and there’s no doubt there’s an anointing on you, Bob. God has called you into this, and you have the same level of enthusiasm and just Christ-likeness in those settings as we’re experiencing here today. So I think that’s cool. So thank you for that obedience. That’s neat stuff.
Bob: Thanks for the kind words and praise God.
Ray: That’s right. Praise God. And so let’s talk a little bit maybe about a couple of the tougher times in your career. As you kind of look back over the last three and a half decades of your business career, Bob, what would you say is among the hardest decisions? You talked a while ago about having to cut large numbers of people and expenses, but I don’t know if that was the hardest or not, but what’s the hardest decision you’ve faced in your business career? And how did your faith play a role in that decision?
Bob: Certainly. So that was obviously a difficult time. But you know, we got through pretty much analytically and over time, and while it was never fun releasing someone, we knew it was the honorable thing to do. I guess an event that pops into my head is during one of the financial crises when some financial firms were struggling, the president of the company I worked for, called me and said that there were some securities available, some paper being issued by one of these troubled companies. And they’re our friends, and they’ve treated us well; how much of that paper are you going to take and put in your portfolios? Well, it wasn’t a good investment from my point of view, and so I could easily reject it on that stamp. And I did, and then days later, he called back a second time, and he enumerated the other people at the firm who were buying that paper, how much was I going to take? And my faith said, Bob, you just can’t do this, even though you’re being, your arm’s being twisted to do it. And, you know, that was the beginning of, I think, the end of my career at that particular firm, because I refused to do it. Now. The good news is the paper did go to zero, so from an investment standpoint, I was vindicated. I still wonder if that was the wrong decision, and the paper was very valuable, what would have happened then? But that was a tough decision, was one of the few times when I had to put God’s principles above corporate principles. That’s not happened to me too many times in that blatant a way.
Ray: Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, as we get a chance to interview new friends here at Bottom Line Faith and learn about their journeys and successes and failures, you know, if I’m listening like, wow, this guy has had just an amazing career path. God is using him mightily, but you’ve had some low seasons. I mean, you’ve lost positions before, is that right? Could you talk about that a little bit?
Bob: Sure. In 2012, so six years ago, I lost my job. The excuse given was literally for sharing my faith. The firm I was working for found videos of me sharing my faith at various events, a Christian university commencement speech, that sort of thing. And I was introduced as a senior person at that firm. And the CEO came to me said, you know, you’ve been talking to your church groups, and you introduce as an employee of this firm, and we don’t do that here. You will resign. So that was rude awakening for me and was not really prepared for it. It was a low season. I found out spiritually; I had transferred some of my very identity to my work. So I was no longer the senior guru is such and so a firm. I didn’t have that anymore. So now, who am I? Lesson of identity. While I wasn’t that person, I was, I’m the Lord’s first and foremost, I, I learned that. Issues of control. I remember my wife saying to me, well, you know, all your life, you’ve been in control. Now, you’re not. You’re finally going to let the Lord control your life. Whoo, thank you for that truth, sweetie. You know, and other lessons like it.
People said to me, Bob, you may never understand why God did that. And yet, 18 months later, I looked, I still look in the mirror from time to time and say, oh, ye of little faith. I’ve made a list of a dozen things that have happened, that wouldn’t have happened had I done that before. Ability to study the subjects of calling and difficulty and failure, and be able to share that with others, and go through the experience and, and help them through when, when that gets all of us. The issues of identity as I mentioned before; having the ministry I now have to share Christ in lots of different ways that maybe I had before, but was frowned upon at the place where I worked, and on and on and on. So I am so grateful for that disruption in life. Seemed like a low time, but God had good purposes in mind. And I rejoice.
Ray: And if you had to point back to one thing that God revealed about himself in that season for you six years ago, and one thing you learned about yourself, what would those be? You know that God is in control, and God is sympathetic and empathetic. Course I knew that intellectually, and that transferred to me. I was the kind of guy who I did it on my own. I didn’t need anybody. Somebody said, How can I pray for you, Bob, I’d give them some inane thing to pray for. I learned at the bottom of the valley that at that time I needed brothers and sisters. And that transformed my ability to be sympathetic to others that were going through difficult periods.
Ray: Yeah. And it would seem to me that this perhaps even an element or an experience to some degree of shame or embarrassment to lose such a high-profile position, I would think that would be the case.
Bob: you know, there was some of that. I think it came out, at least the way it hurt in that identity thing that I mentioned earlier. You know, I can remember a few years before that saying to my wife, you know, I work on Wall Street, and virtually everybody that works in Wall Street gets fired at least once. You know, I don’t know how many more years I have left in this career, but boy haven’t I’ve been fortunate? I ate those words.
Ray: Maybe the Lord has given your prophetic voice at that time, right?
Bob: Probably right.
Ray: Bob, as you look back over the course of your career, your life, what do you think was the best advice you were ever given? And how does that impact you today?
Bob: Oh, I think the recognition or the advice to say, Bob, you’re, you’re God’s child. And that means this, this, this, this, and this. I come back to some of the things I said earlier. I knew I was God’s child. Of course, I did. But I was God’s child and worshiped him on Sundays. And I was doing my thing, yes to please Him and to live in his ways, but they were two separate worlds. Integrating that was a huge lesson for me. And you know, what, it leads to a whole lot more joy.
Ray: It’s very powerful. And I think that’s a great lesson that all of us can be reminded of, is that we are created with that stamp of Christ in our hearts, and we become his child, but we don’t leave it at the door at the office; we bring that to the marketplace. And we have an integrated life; you probably said that four or five times during our conversation. And so if you could go back and like that first year, right out of school, and you’re in the early pathway of your career, what advice do you wish someone would have given you that maybe you didn’t get?
Bob: Yeah, somebody to help make all these things happen more quickly, that the understanding that it is an integrated life, and I’m not trying to be successful at work, so that I can be successful in my faith or for God, but that I’m one and, and to be faithful, living out his Word in all that I do. That’s an important lesson, the issue of money. If I had really understood that I probably knew intellectually that it’s all his in the first place, I wouldn’t have to wait so long to have the joy of giving. But there are among the principles I think would make a difference.
Ray: Good lessons, good lessons, and it’s not too late to have those passed along to those who are listening here. Amen. Well, Bob, thank you for just the extension of your time today. You’ve been such a blessing and such an encouragement, not only to me but to our listeners. So thank you for being here at Bottom Line Faith.
Bob: My privilege.
Ray: My last question then is based out of Proverbs 4:23, where Solomon writes these words, he says, “Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.” And so Bob, what I’d like to do is, as we wrap up our conversation today, I’d like you to fill in the blank for us; I’d like you to share your “above all else” advice with our audience. So what would be that one piece of encouragement that one piece of advice that you would want to pass along for all of eternity?
Bob: So you did prepare me for this one, so I actually wrote three things down, if you’ll permit me. Two of them we touched on, one quite a bit, and one not at all. Number one, guard your heart; have a Christlike attitude. We are to model Christ; we’re to reflect him; we’re, we’re to be in his image, and he left us on this planet to represent him as his church. Two, this is the one we’ve mentioned, have an own nothing perspective. And that’s whether you’re in the world’s eyes, rich or poor. None of it is ours. It’s all given to us by God. And if we really understand that, our attitude toward people and things will be somewhat different. At least mine was. And the third we didn’t touch it all. This is not my home. We are as Christians passing through; we’re pilgrims; we’re sojourners, as the Bible says. And if we have that attitude, wow, our perspective changes as well in all kinds of things – including the generosity. You know if I really think this is my home, I’m going to be a lot stingier than if I realize you know, what I’m passing through. In fact, as Randy Alcorn, one of my favorite authors, writes, you can’t take it with you, but you can send it on ahead. And for lessons in generosity, I love that kernel.
Ray: Well, I’m going to repeat those for our audience if that’s okay, Bob, is the three things, you’re “above all else” advice, is maintain that Christlike attitude, have an own nothing perspective, understanding it’s all God’s anyway, and then thirdly, this is not my home; I’m just passing through. Did I summarize that?
Ray: This has been so much fun. And Bob, I just want to say that I am so encouraged, you know, here at Bottom Line Faith, we get to interview a wide variety of CEOs and entrepreneurs and sports and entertainment celebrities and those sorts of things. But it’s all about people who are living out their faith in the marketplace. And it gives me great, great encouragement to know that God has placed a man like you specifically in the heart of the financial world, to be his servant, to be his witness for Christ. So I just want to say well done, brother. I’m so encouraged, and I can’t thank you enough for being our guest today.
Bob: Thank you for the opportunity, Ray. And thank you for your ministry and getting the word out.
Ray: Well, we’re just trying to be an encouragement, right? We all need that encouragement. So folks, today, we have just wrapped up our conversation with Bob Doll. He is the Senior Portfolio Manager and Chief Equity Strategist at Nuveen Asset Management. He has joined us on the phone from his hometown, Princeton, New Jersey. And folks, if this is the first time that you’ve joined us here at Bottom Line Faith, we are so grateful that you would invest the time to join us today. If you’re a regular listener, hey, thanks so much. And in both cases, we would be so honored if you would take just a couple of moments, go online, give a review to the conversation today. Your reviews, your comments are what help make the program successful. It’s what gives us greater exposure, online presence, market awareness and so forth. And as our guest Bob Doll just said, it is really critical that we encourage our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ in the marketplace to live out their faith on a daily basis. And whether you’re in the financial services and markets like our guest today, whether you’re a CEO, whether you’re a manager in a bank, wherever you are, God has positioned you there to be his witness in the marketplace. So thank you, thank you from the bottom of our hearts here at Bottom Line Faith. We would like to encourage you to check out the ministry of Truth At Work at truthatwork.org, and you can learn about the community of like-minded business leaders who gather in roundtable groups across the country to do what we do here at Bottom Line Faith, and that’s to encourage one another to live out our faith in business and in the marketplace. So check us out at truthatwork.org. So until next time, I am your host here at Bottom Line Faith, Ray Hilbert, saying thank you so much for joining us and go serve God faithfully in the marketplace. God bless. We’ll see you soon.