1:21– About Springbuk
4:19– What is your role at Springbuk? And how did you get there?
7:18– My testimony
9:21– When did the integration of faith and business happen for you?
14:16– What are some biblical principles that are foundational to you and your leadership?
16:52– What are a couple of difficult decision your faith helped get you through?
18:38– How does running your fact-based, statistically driven business ballance out with living a life of faith?
21:43– What’s the biggest mistake you can recall making in business? And how did your faith get you through that?
23:33– What do you wish someone would’ve told you in your first year of being an entrepreneur?
24:14– How would you explain the difference between fear and wisdom and dicernment?
26:42– A piece of advice
27:36– The 4:23 Question
Rod is currently the CEO and Co-Founder of one of Indianapolis’ most successful tech startups, Springbuk, which is helping solve the ever-increasing burden of healthcare on the US economy by actively using data to prevent disease. Rod is a successful businessman, whose faith has been an integral part of both his personal and professional life. Over the last two decades, he has started and sold 5 companies ranging from realestate and financial services to insurance and population health.
His inquisitive and intuitive nature has led to disrupting antiquated business models with progressive products and strategies typically not yet introduced to the system. Rod seeks to find the truth in a market and build a business that solves the problem rather than treating the symptoms. He is an active leader in discipleship, men’s group, and with his local church.
Full Transcript:
Ray: Well, hello, everyone. This is Ray Hilbert and I am your host here at the Bottom Line Faith program. Well, folks, I am really excited today to be in my hometown of Indianapolis, Indiana and have the incredible privilege of interviewing Mr. Rod Reasen, who is the co-founder and CEO of Springbuk. And right now, we just encourage you to check out their website at springbuk.com. Rod, welcome to Bottom Line Faith.
Rod: Thank you.
Ray: Rod, tell us a little bit. You’re a tech guy; you’re a guy that’s in the tech industry, at least that’s where you are now. You’ve had backgrounds that always hasn’t been specifically in the tech world, but why don’t you just start on the program today, tell us about Springbuk and what your role is there and what you guys do, it’s very unique.
Rod: Sure, so Springbuk is a health analytics platform. And often we say that, people say, what is that? So we’re a cloud-based system that collects medical claims, pharmacy, payroll, and other data sets on the individual for the idea of helping employers combat this problem for rising health care costs. The genesis of this is that health care costs continue to rise in America, as we all know, and that’s ultimately passed down to the individual through premium increases and other things, and we all want to increase health. So our mission is to prevent disease with data by empowering employers with good information.
Ray: Well, that sounds to me like an very important work. How are you guys specifically going about that in a way that’s maybe not been done before, or what’s unique about Springbuk?
Rod: I think one of the things that we’ve found is that in the middle market, where about 103,000 employers are represented, there are solutions that are available to the enterprise space and to the SMB space, but nothing really to the middle market. And so we took was enterprise sophistication and made it very simple for an average employer, HR person, CFO to be able to dig into the data, and we almost create citizen data scientist by having a very, very simple to use platform.
Ray: Okay, so, so I’m a CFO in a company with say, 150 employees, okay? Walk me through what difference Springbuk is going to make to me and my company in the bottom line.
Rod: So our normal employers would be a little larger than that. So we’d say around 1,500 employees would be the normal employer. So a 1,500 employee company probably has a more sophisticated HR team, someone that is, has been tasked with this cost pool growth of benefits. And that that’s a pretty wide span, but it can be everything from the actual benefit costs to the overall benefit package. And we found that benefit costs are typically in that top five overall expenses behind raw goods, labor, and other things. And so employers are trying to figure out if I’m controlling my raw goods costs, why wouldn’t I be looking at data and analytics on these other pieces of my business? So we fit that, that vein of being able to help solve for rising cost of healthcare by showing areas where they’re already overspending. So that could be generic versus brand name medications, ER over expense opioid risk and reduction and other items; the sophistication obviously goes pretty deep.
Ray: That’s very helpful. And so you’re going to get into the analyzing behaviors and traits and characteristics that’s going to hopefully be identified that can drive costs down. Is that?
Rod: That’s correct.
Ray: Okay, that’s the Ray Hilbert farm boy, simple, kind of deal there. Now, your background hasn’t always been in this space. I want to talk about that in just a moment. But tell us more about your role at Springbuk and how did you end up here?
Rod: So I am the CEO and co-founder. My background, I’m not sure how far you want me to go back, but I’ll just take it down a quick journey there. So I like to think of myself as a very inquisitive individual. So I have teenagers, and we’re trying to guide them through high school and college choices. And one of the things I’m challenging my 17-year-old is to, is to be intellectually inquisitive. So chase the areas that you find interesting, and when you do that, you’ll ultimately end up in a career that you enjoy. So I’ve been in business or entrepreneurship in some fashion all my life ever since I was 13 years old buying or getting Thomson Reuters prospectuses, and I grew up in a blue-collar family, to buying wrecked cars and, and flipping them in high school. So I cut hair while I was in college, sold real estate, travel, done various different things.
But what led me to this space was that I was in the brokerage consulting industry, helping employers solve this various problem that we’re talking about. And I was frustrated because I was pulling in all this data, and using Excel and pivot tables to do this crunching or munging of data, and it was very laborious. And so we, we decided that we’d take a look at the industry. We found that there were some competitors in the space, but mostly in the enterprise industry, or in selling to the enterprise-sized companies. And we said, holy cow, there’s an opportunity to not just bring a solution to the middle market, but to actually bring a much more advanced, simple, easy to use, beautiful, elegant interface to that space.
Ray: Okay. So by the way, I’m very intrigued. So from a very, very young age, you had this entrepreneurial edge or itch about you, right? And so you probably, I can’t imagine you see yourself working in any environment where you’re not the boss. Is that fair?
Rod: So the truth is, in my professional career, I’ve had three months worth of W-2 income, and that was not even W-2, it was draw 1,500 hours a month. When I first got out of college, my boss at the time said, alright, we’ll give you $4,500 to start. You don’t know anybody in town; here’s a phone and Yellow Pages, figure it out. But we give you 4,500 bucks. How do you want it? You can have it all in one month. I said, well, give it to me in three months, and just spread it out. And so that was my only W-2 income, and I had to pay back that money, so it wasn’t even paid to me as salary.
Ray: So you’re, you are at the core, the core, the core, you’re an entrepreneur.
Rod: Sure.
Ray: Right? And so and I’m really headed somewhere with this, because that’s a big part of what we’re trying to do here at Bottom Line Faith is equip and encourage entrepreneurs, those who are entrepreneurs, who love the Lord and kind of help them in that journey. And so why don’t we take just a little bit of time then, to just give us a little framework of your spiritual journey. And then I want to begin to weave and craft that into your business career and how those have overlapped. So tell us a little bit about your walk with Christ, how that came about.
Rod: Sure. So I grew up in a first and second generation Christian family. My mother was saved. My dad got saved later in life, was in the military, and so he was a baby believer. And the best thing my dad ever did for my brother and I, besides the teaching of a work ethic, was he put us in Christian school, and he didn’t have the discipline or hadn’t ever been discipled, but was being discipled as we were growing up. But the best thing he ever did was put us into a Christian home. So I was saved at five. I remember hearing hell being preached to me and being scared at the fire as a five-year-old boy. And I walked to the back of the room, hung on a coat rack, as I was waiting for someone to come walk me through the plan of salvation. So I grew up in a Christian home. I wasn’t repenting from major sin or whatever.
So I had that faith upbringing. Decided to go to a Christian school because my parents told me that they’ll pay for my first year of college if I go to a Christian school, and I did not want to. I was not at all wanting to go to a Christian school, but did and ended up going to Bob Jones University, having never stepped foot on campus before, showed up on the first day of school and said, okay, I’ll go here. My dad’s gonna pay for my first year, so we’ll go here. Ended up spending the full four years at BJ, double majored in marketing and finance. At the time, they didn’t have a double major ability, but I took all the elective credits for both marketing and finance. Helped start the investment club at BJ. I know you’re gonna hear this a lot from me, and cut hair while I was at BJ. It’s funny because if you see my bio, you’ll see that I’m bald. But I cut hair at BJ, but actually bought a BMW with the money that I made cutting hair, so I guess yes, I’ve had the entrepreneurial bug all my life.
Ray: Exciting story. And so growing up in a in a solid Christian home, that kind of environment and so forth. Then going off to a Christian university, where and when did the whole concept of the integration of faith and work, where did that become real for you?
Rod: So I knew it, basically, I mean, if you think about it, people that grew up in Christian homes, you graduate from, you know, being in your family, at 18 years old, it’s like graduating from college or any other academic institution. So I had the academic knowledge of what it meant to look like a Christian and I walked a good Christian life. I went to church, tithed, dressed like a Christian, acted like a Christian, talked like a Christian, and was. I mean, I was, there’s no question I accepted Christ at five years old. But I kind of compartmentalized my Christian faith. And like a lot of folks that I know, I treated my, my 90% as my 90% and my 10% as Christ’s 10%. And that’s how I lived my life. And it was actually when I was in my early 30s, was going through a really busy time in the business and a really hard time that I finally got on my knees and just surrendered. It was a really tough time and realized, just through a lot of conviction and through a lot of prayer that I was not giving Christ my all. I was giving my 10% and doing really good at my 10%, but he did not have my 90%. So it was that point in my mid-30s when I had one of my other companies, and I just gave it all to him, realized that I’m 100% is and I’m 100%, he didn’t just 10% save me. He 100% saved me. So that was a big turning point for me.
Ray: Yeah. And so thank you. That’s really pretty cool to hear. But help me understand what changed. I mean, I get, I get that like, okay, I’m going from this 10% commitment to all in commitment. But could you give an example of maybe a decision that you made, or how you would go about your day to day operation of business that really reflected this all-in approach? What changed for you?
Rod: We had had a really good year, and then the economy turned on a dime. This happened in 2008. The market took a big turn; our revenue dropped by about 27% in the first quarter, and I had to lay off six people. And I had some debt that I had never had before, but we were growing, and so we had taken on some debt. And I just got to the point where I, as Rod Reasen, could not figure it out. And I come into the office, I do my devotions in the morning, and I was just on my knees, and I just cried out to the Lord, why? And through a lot of time just with the Lord at that day, just came to the conviction that well, do you want me to answer this at 10%, or do you want me to answer it at 90%? And really was convicted I was not giving my 100%.
Ray: Yeah, yeah, and I’ve heard and I happen to believe this, that one of the kind of manifestations of that kind of transition is like, when something’s not going well, maybe a deal isn’t coming through, or maybe the right people don’t seem
to be coming along, we tend to hold on to it a little less, right? A little less emotion; our fists open up a little bit, and we don’t try to control everything, right? And we kind of go with the flow a little bit more, like, Lord, I’m trusting you. Was that your story as well? Were you able to begin to just let go and let loose a little bit?
Rod: For those that know me, I am a very hard worker. And so I put a lot of faith in my own ability to get things done. Some of the Bible verses that I cling to, even in our hiring process, and the other things are the parable of five talents, and I have this aspiration to be a five-talent guy. I don’t know if I am, but that’s my aspiration. And so I try to lean on my own understanding an awful lot. Proverb 3, 5, and 6. And it was kind of that realization that holy cow, what am I? If I continue to lean on my own understanding, I don’t know anything. If I want to be a five-talent individual, then that means releasing control, as you’ve just talked about. And you know, the light didn’t come down, the ceiling didn’t open up, but it was a big turning point for me. And my wife can attest to that.
Ray: Yeah, I can relate to that. You know, even for me, when you’ve done something long enough, and you’re good at it, it is very easy to rely on the flesh and we can sound spiritual like, oh, I’m trusting God. God, you’ve got this. But we really go about it ourselves. You know, I was even thinking about that as I was driving over for this interview today was just praying and asking the Lord for guidance, for wisdom. You know, if I were going to be like 100% gut-level honest, you know, when my pride kicks in, it’s like I don’t really need to pray about that. I’ve done this 100 times; why do I need to pray about it? Well, I think that’s part of that total submission because I want to ask the Lord for new revelation, new insight, new development, and that’s what we’re talking about here; that’s moving from the 10% to the all in. I love that. So you mentioned this five talent kind of guy, and what are maybe a couple of biblical principles that are really foundational for you in your leadership that you hold on to?
Rod: So the parable of the five talents is just one that I love the analogy because, in biblical times, it wasn’t uncommon for a master just a boss to leave town to go trade and to leave the organization or business into the hands of his hired hands at the time. That’s no different than what we see today. You know ,we don’t use the term servant or master anymore, but the analogy is identical. So we think about who we as men want to be. Do you want to be considered the one talent guy? No, you know, the guy that takes the talent and digs a hole in the sand because he’s fearful? Or even a two talent? The whole analogy between the two talent guy and the five talent guy in the parable, they both return double the talents that they were given, but so that’s one of them. The parable of the five talents.
As far as another principle, I guess, I point to Biblical characters that I just love. Men in the workplace would be Joseph and Daniel. They’re both godly men, obviously, from our biblical knowledge of them, but they were taken into captivity. And both of them, not because of their situation, their upbringing, but because of adversity actually rose up because they were good men of character. And one of the things I was challenged with early on about that same time that I was going through this whole 90/10 thing was this thinking that I had growing up that you couldn’t be in vocation and be fully sold out for God. That you somehow needed to be a missionary or a pastor, or in, you know, full-time service, and you couldn’t be in vocation. And I really that struggled with that mentally for a long time and yet here are two Biblical examples here of men that weren’t in biblical ministry, per se, but who rose up in command because of the work that they did. And God honored them because of that, and obviously gave them an opportunity to be a testimony.
Ray: Those are absolutely stellar examples of that. And, you know, I remember that too. Kind of like being under the impression that the, the holy people become missionaries and pastors and the rest of us schmucks are just supposed to make the money to support him. And boy, that is such a lie that Satan loves to throw out on us. So let’s talk a little bit about some of the difficulty of living out our faith in business. You know, so you mentioned, you know, you’ve had this solid Christian foundation, went to a very conservative Christian college, right, so you’ve got those foundational pieces. But I’m sure it’s not always been easy living out your faith. What maybe is one or two difficult decisions that you’ve been through where your faith really guided the difficult parts for it?
Rod: So this is a tough one to answer. Because each day, we’re growing a very fast scaling business. We were at around nine employees this time two years ago; I think we just hired employee number 90 or something. So we’re very quickly growing. So the Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 verses, why a lot of people use those as their life verses, is the whole idea of leaning not unto thine own understanding. So there’s obviously the biblical context to that verse of leaning not into your own knowledge and your own understanding. But when we, when we bring in groups of people, one of the things that I challenge them with is that, especially interns, is you as an intern are going to walk in, and hopefully we as a company can challenge you.
But one of the things that I know about just our human minds and our own experience is that the more experience I have, the more closed minded I become to new ideas. And so you as interns need to challenge us; otherwise, we’re going to continue operating all the things that have worked and become less and less innovative. So the difficulty, I don’t know that there’s one specific one that we can point out; I’d say that the difficulty is not leaning on your own understanding and making sure that you’re praying through situations, that you’re always seeking wise counsel, surrounding yourself with other wisdom, which is a couple of the points that we’ll talk about here in a minute.
Ray: This may be a curveball question, and I don’t mean it to be one that’s going to trip you up, but it actually just struck me as I’m listening into the conversation. So your businesses about data; your business is about facts; it’s about detail and making scientifically based, statistically based decisions. Did I have that part right so far?
Rod: Sure.
Ray: Okay. How does that balance out with living a life of faith?
Rod: Oh, that’s a good question. Okay, so background story here. I had benefit consulting firm, financial planning, 401K, and then some real estate. In 2010, my wife and I started to pray about, we just felt our nest being stirred a bit. In March of that year, we literally in our closet and I said, honey, I think it’s time that we sell this business. The very next day, I get a wrong number phone call from what ended up being our acquirer that Thanksgiving. During that process, we learned an awful lot. You think that selling a business and any of those that are listening here says, wow, you sold a business. You live your life as a business owner kind of leading up to that stage, but you don’t ask what next? And I didn’t ask myself what next? And I was in the financial planning business asking people about what next.
So it was really interesting that I wasn’t even prepared. December 1, I walked in that day. And I had the 17 people that I had been growing as my team members, and they were all gone, and I was in a 6,200 square foot office building by myself. And I’ve spent a couple years just not knowing what I was going to do. I was over at, I won’t name the business, but I was having my tires done, and I walked over to Lowe’s, and to shorten the story here, talked with a guy, and he said, hey, I’m going through the same situation. But I’ve been reading this book called In A Pit With A Lion On A Snowy Day, by Mark Patterson. And I said, okay, so I walked up to Barnes & Noble and bought the book, sat there and started reading the first couple chapters, and I was completely aghast.
Ray: It was like he wrote that book for you.
Rod: It was crazy. So that book actually was the genesis of what became Springbuk. So I had always started businesses on my own, had used my own capital, my own wherewithal, and I really felt like God was saying, or I want you to start a software company with zero software experience, and I want you to go raise investment capital with zero investment capital experience. And that led to a really interesting conversation with my wife. And we jumped out on that journey, not living by fear.
Ray: I love it. I have the statement I’ve said for a few years. Every one of us should have to do three things in the course of our lifetime. We should have to join the military to learn respect, right? We should have to take missions trips to learn gratitude, and we should have to become an entrepreneur and start a business to learn faith.
Rod: To learn faith. Absolutely. Yeah.
Ray: So that is absolutely perfect answer to the question about even though your business model is data-driven, statistics-driven, facts and so forth, and making decisions on certainty, right, for your clients, it was a faith journey that brought you to that point. And that’s, that’s, that’s a beautiful story. I appreciate you sharing that. That’s good stuff. So as you as you look back, and maybe within the context of Springbuk, but just look back over the entire course of your career, what’s the biggest mistake you can recall making in business? How did your faith play a role of getting you through that?
Rod: So biggest mistake was starting a business with someone I shouldn’t have started a business with, and I knew it was the wrong decision. But I talked myself, I rationalized.
Ray: You knew it at the time.
Rod: Oh, absolutely. But rationalized that it was okay, and it turned out to be a disaster.
Ray: So we don’t need to reveal the facts and names and so forth, but that right there is probably a great point for us to just park on for just a moment, because there’s probably somebody right now listening to this conversation, and they’re weighing through a partnership, bringing on a key person in their company, a key hire, a deal, or whatever, what was it in the moment that you, what were the traits, what were the things that indicated to you this is not the right person? And yet, why did you do it anyway?
Rod: I think a lot of entrepreneurs are builders and fixers and we unfortunately bring that over to people sometimes. And this particular situation was one where I felt like I could fix this person; that they were on a path to be more ethical, and I knew them to be an untrustworthy person, and they had a reputation of being so. So I felt like somehow my huge personality.
Ray: Sounds like missionary dating here.
Rod: Oh my gosh, it was, yeah. Hindsight is 20/20.
Ray: Fair enough. So I’m thinking of the verse in Proverbs, I believe it’s 10:22, says that the blessings of the Lord brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it. But yet when there’s that trouble being added, that’s like the Holy Spirit speaking, right? And every once in a while, we just choose to ignore it. And it sounds like hey, welcome to the club, right? No, you don’t have carte blanche on that.
Rod: No, no, plenty mistakes.
Ray: Well I appreciate that. Okay. What do you wish someone had told you in your first year of entrepreneurial lifestyle? What do you wish somebody would have told you that you didn’t know, this comes out of Mark Patterson’s book, In A Pit With A Lion. But I think the biggest thing I took from that book is just living without fear and doesn’t mean being haphazard, but I wish someone would have given me the advice to chase the dream, chase the lion, which is his follow up book, and having a little bit more faith that if God is going to send you down this path, he’s also going to equip you along that way. And we oftentimes expect to be fully equipped before we go on the journey. And that’s just not how business works; that’s not how the walk of faith works.
Ray: Yeah. And so along those lines, how would you kind of help me understand the difference between fear and wisdom and discernment? In other words, I’ve got this opportunity, I’ve got this decision or whatever. When is it faith, and when is it just like I’m being wise by holding off? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Rod: My mother actually gave me some really good advice, and so if she’s listening, thanks, Mom. I had an offer to sell a company in 2008, the same year that we were having some financial struggles, but the company that was going to be buying us was in essence, going to terminate all the employees and take the assets and then put me as this new practice leader. And I was walking in, and they’ve flown in their private jet, I was walking in to actually get the deal done. And I was sitting in the car with zero peace; zero. And I called my mom as I was sitting there, and I said, what should we do? What should I do? And she says, if it’s not of God, you will have no peace. If it’s of God, you will have peace, and I walked in, and I told these guys no. and they were infuriated.
Ray: I can only imagine.
Rod: They were infuriated. But I knew it was the right thing to do.
Ray: And folks, I’m looking in Rod’s eyes, and he’s emotional. This is real as it gets right there, right, in that God gave you that answer in that. So what happened? You kept the company and eventually sold, right?
Rod: Kept the company, two years later, and sold for quite a bit more than what we would have, and all of the employees for taken care of. That was just something that we, my wife and I prayed for three things specifically. That I wouldn’t go with the deal, which is unusual for the entrepreneur not to go with a deal.
Ray: Correct.
Rod: But I built a really good company, and had an incredible team, I wanted the team to, to be fully taken care of, meaning that they would either get a promotion or move into the next role, or be taken care of in some fashion, and then we had a certain number that we were trying to hit. And all three came through.
Ray: Sounds like through your faithfulness and obedience, God had a special plan for that. So that’s, that’s a great, great example. Because you could have, round one of that was sitting on the table, right? But you just, in your car, didn’t have peace. And so let’s transition that to advice. Let’s say that there’s somebody listening right now to the conversation that you and I are having. And again, they’ve got a big decision. They’ve got a big opportunity and something just inside of them, they’re sitting in their car, maybe right now, and they’re going, I know what Rod’s talking about. I don’t have that peace. But it’s such a big deal; it’ll never happen like this again; I’ll never have this chance. What advice would you have for someone who’s in that place as they’re listening to this conversation?
Rod: What legacy do you want to leave? You know, at the end of the day, I wanted to be able to post sale, I wanted to be able to see any one of these members of this team in the grocery store or at a park and know that they would want to not avoid me, and not just for personally seeing them, but as a Christian, we do more than just wear this badge of Christianity on our, on our shirt sleeve. You know, for me, that’s like, it’s not my name that really matters. It’s going to be the name of Christ. And if I sell this business, and I make a lot of money, who cares, if you leave this such a horrible name for the name of Christ.
Ray: That’s, that’s good stuff right there. And I, I’ve got a feeling that somebody’s listening right now just got a word of encouragement. So that’s what we’re about here at Bottom Line Faith is being a word of encouragement. Okay, so Rod, this is what we call our 4:23 question. It’s based out of Proverbs chapter 4, verse 23. Solomon writes these words, he says, “Above all else, guard your heart, for all of life flows from it.” What I’d like you to do is imagine for a moment that you have a chance, it’s towards the tail end of this side of eternity, and it’s in your final days of life here on earth, and you have a chance to gather your family, your friends, your loved ones, those who are most precious to you, and you have enough breath in you that you can pass along one piece of advice. What I’d like you to do, Rod is I’d like you to just fill in the blank. What would you advise? Above all else…
Rod: Well, what’s interesting is my one thing is actually your verse. We’re in the database as you mentioned, and garbage in, garbage out. So as a believer or as a human being, what you allow in your mind, in your ears will be what comes out. So the Bible so masterfully articulates that if you do not keep your heart with all diligence, obviously, the issues of life come out of that. But what goes in, absolutely will come out.
Ray: So above all else, guard this rascal.
Rod: Guard the rascal.
Ray: Guard what’s going in it. Rod, thanks so much for being on the program today. Is there any additional thoughts, anything you’d like to share that we haven’t talked about today?
Rod: Well, you know, the only other thing I’d mention just in preparation for this is the whole advice piece. There are three principles that I lead my life on. That’s number one is, is the garbage in, garbage out, keeping your heart with all diligence. Number two is the whole idea of sharpening your saw. I think as believers, that’s paramount. It comes down to the parables of the five talents, being recognized in the workplace as that individual, that Daniel or Joseph we should be if you’re continuing to sharpen your saw. And then as a man and you know, as a leader, I think surrounding yourself with great people that can challenge you can hold you accountable is of paramount degree.
Ray: Fantastic. Well, folks, I’m really glad we had a chance to sit down with Rod today and again, one more time, I just want to direct you to their website at springbuk.com, and is there a way to contact you directly there? Can they leave you a message to let you know how much they enjoyed the program today?
Rod: You can find me on LinkedIn.
Ray: Okay, perfect.
Rod: And my contact information is there.
Ray: Fantastic. So thank you for being on the program today.
Rod: Thank you.
Ray: Well folks, thank you for joining us here at Bottom Line Faith. Check out the website, bottomlinefaith.org; dozens and dozens of interviews there as well. And if you’re not a regular subscriber, why not become one today? Go to your platform of choice, whether you’re on Google Play or iTunes, Stitcher, whatever the case may be, sign up, become a regular listener, because you will get an episode like the one we just had with Rod every week. And we’ve had a chance to interview some of the most amazing Christian business and marketplace leaders around the country. And so until next time, I am your host here at Bottom Line Faith, Ray Hilbert, encouraging you to faithfully serve the Lord every day in the marketplace. See you next time.