Today’s show features Brock Beiersdorfer, co-founder and owner of The Heavenly Donut Company.
“People go get donuts for a number of reasons. They go because they’re just hungry or they need breakfast, but they also get it because they’re happy and celebrating something or they are upset and consoling themselves. The Heavenly Donut Company [name] helps us to keep an eternal perspective on things. We’re not just about making money or selling donuts, it’s [about] the people that come in. We’re not Heavenly Donuts which is what a lot of people call us. We are The Heavenly Donut Company. We’re a company of people who are looking to impact our community.”
Ray: Well hello everybody. This is Ray Hilbert at the Bottom Line Faith podcast. I am on the road in beautiful Birmingham, Alabama. For those of you who this is your first time listening to the Bottom Line Faith program, go check out the website at bottomlinefaith.org. And you can subscribe there, and you can receive on a weekly basis these podcasts that are coming out, and in future months you’ll be learning about the Bottom Line Faith and other projects that we have going on as part of this initiative. If you are a regular listener, thank you for tuning in again for this edition, you’re going to be blessed. We are going to hear an incredible, exciting story about a product we all love. We’re going to hear about donuts today. But more importantly, we’re going to hear about how God has touched the heart of a husband and wife to start a donut company to his glory. We are in Birmingham, Alabama and my guest on this edition of Bottom Line Faith is Brock Beiersdorfer. Now, Brock, that’s not an easy name to say. How did I do? Beiersdorfer
Brock: You did great.
Ray: Alright. That had to be hard growing up in school, writing that out all the time
Brock: I think I blocked that out. I don’t even remember it. That’s one of the memories you just let fade away.
Ray: But it looks like you made it through just fine. Hey, Brock, take just a moment and tell us about your company here in Birmingham, The Heavenly Donut Company. I’m looking at your shirt, your hat, man, I’m hungry. Tell me about your donuts.
Brock: The Heavenly Donut Company, we opened four years ago. Serve just donuts, about 35 flavors of donuts every day. We make them fresh every morning and serve Birmingham with our store, and then we have two food trucks that go out around Birmingham to different locations and events, and loving it; Love serving donuts.
Ray: Well, who doesn’t love donuts?
Brock: Four years going, I’ll still eat one probably every day.
Ray: That is fantastic. And we’re going to hear the story. It’s a really unique story about how you and your wife Kimberly started this company. And I want to hear about where you think God may be taking it and those sorts of things. But as you and I were talking before we started the interview, what we’re trying to do here at Bottom Line Faith is there are great programs out there, you know, leadership podcasts, leadership workshops, and seminars where thought leaders and experts come and share what they’ve learned their expertise. There are authors and books and those kinds of things. And that is wonderful. But what we’re trying to do here at Bottom Line Faith is we’re trying to learn from other Christian leaders in the trenches, the folks who are out there every day, grinding it out. So we’re going to talk about lessons learned and things we wish we had done differently, how we try to integrate our faith and so forth.
So I have a feeling, I really have a feeling about this conversation that there’s going to be somebody listening, that’s going to be tremendously encouraged, tremendously inspired, because maybe they’ve had an idea that they’ve been wondering about, should I start a company? Should I do this? Maybe they should do something different. We’re going to hear that from you today. Because that’s really a part of your story, right? Tell us a little bit about what started this idea of The Heavenly Donut Company and then tell us how it actually moved from an idea to reality.
Brock: My wife and I both had a desk jobs, I worked in employee benefits for 10 years of the time, and she was working behind a desk doing alumni events and affairs for a university here. And my dad opened up a donut shop in a smaller town, and we just kind of got to thinking about how much we love donuts. I mean, who doesn’t love donuts? And kinda watch people, and people go get donuts for a number of reasons. They go get because they’re just hungry or they need breakfast, but they also get it because they’re happy and celebrating something, or they’re upset and consoling themselves. We just kind of watched the people go in and out and thought it would be a great way to just be more of a part of the community.
Ray: And you did a lot of research. You talked about doing your market research, as it were. Generally speaking, do donut shops make it? Is there a good success rate, a high failure rate, just what’s that look like?
Brock: There’s been a lot of donut shops open in and around Birmingham. And probably the last five years. We had a couple of mentors. Actually, one of them was a very successful donut shop in another state that mentored us through kind of the opening and where we needed to be and what it looks like. And to us, you really have to have the right ingredients, the right area, the right number of businesses and homes and income level and just everything to kind of make it successful. Donuts are not a high price item, so volume is your key there.
Ray: Yeah. And you’re also through your food trucks strategy; it sounds like you’re able to enhance your distribution and minimize those overhead. You don’t need second and third locations to secure customer bases. Is that part of your strategy?
Brock: That is, yeah, so that was always part of our game plan. It took us a couple of years to get our first food truck. Yeah, now we can take it across Birmingham, we don’t have to have another location or a team overnight cooking. We can attend events, weddings, socials, go to business locations, offices, neighborhoods, all that kind of stuff without having, really a whole lot of overhead with that.
Ray: Something in the back of my head is saying, I see you on Shark Tank, and Mr. Wonderful. No, sorry, I just had a moment there.
Brock: I’m not sure Mr. Wonderful would be my choice there, but.
Ray: So you had this idea. You did your research, but you actually came to a conclusion you weren’t going to do it. Tell us about that. And then what caused that decision to change that led to actually starting the company.
Brock: We started doing our research, market research, looking for locations, actually found a location, looked at a contract, talked about the build-out, all that sort of thing, and then decided not to do it. Figured it wasn’t the right timing. We didn’t have the money, so we kind of set it aside, put it on the back burner. Really didn’t put on the backburner just threw it away altogether.
Ray: Pitched it, okay.
Brock: And then less than six months later, my wife woke up and said, “You know, just had this really vivid dream about us owning a donut shop. Like I saw exactly what it looks like, and how it was laid out. And we had a food truck.” And I said, “Honey, we’ve already, we’ve already talked about this, you’ve already prayed through this and agreed not to do it. So let’s not muddy the waters here.” You know, and then that Sunday, at church her identical twin sister said, “You know, I had this crazy dream this week about y’all having a donut shop.” So at that point, it was kind of hard to argue with the whole twin power thing going on there. And so we started pursuing it again. And we started doing another market analysis and researching locations, and a location that we had originally looked at. We called, and somebody had just signed a contract and put a deposit on it that morning. Alright, so we look for another place and ended up finding it. And so yeah, that’s kind of re-sparked our whole journey, I guess.
Ray: That was truly amazing. I mean, the idea was kind of dead, where we don’t know what we’re gonna do, but we’re going to do something else, not a donut shop. Your wife has this very vivid, detailed dream, and then her twin sister in church that very week, and she had a very similar dream.
Brock: To me, what I thought was just, hey, we’re not even going to reopen discussion, it was a very clear confirmation. And God was bringing this back in our life for some reason.
Ray: That’s the closest thing to skywriting I think I’ve heard.
Brock: That’s right.
Ray: Wow, that’s amazing. And so I just want to pause for a second because somebody’s listening, I’m sure right now, Brock, and they’re thinking like, okay, some crazy things have happened lately. Maybe God’s trying to speak. Maybe God is trying to get my attention. And I just I love that detail. It’s huge. It’s also a very important detail that you almost couldn’t ignore those messages. Is that how you see it?
Ray: So now you’re four-plus years into this journey. How’s it going?
Brock: It’s going great. And it’s a lot more work than we thought it would be.
Ray: More than you thought, okay.
Brock: More than we thought, absolutely. But anytime we’ve gone through the hard times, or the hey, did we really hear from God, like, what is going on? We just remind ourselves, not only did you have a dream, but it was confirmed through somebody else. So if God’s got this for us, then he’s going to pull us through it. And even after we committed to the plan, so many things just fell in line, they just opened up and fell in our laps, only God could have done, just to kind of reconfirm, over the course of the next four years that yes, he did definitely put us on this path. So he’ll get us through whatever we’re going through.
Ray: So you mentioned your father had started a donut shop in a small town.
Brock: That’s right.
Ray: But did you or your wife come from a lineage of entrepreneurs and business owners? Or was this kind of like a new thing for your family?
Brock: My dad was very involved in businesses, growing up, through his adulthood. And so I kind of learned, I guess, from him or saw him go through that, and was very interested in being an entrepreneur or self-employed at the very least. So that kind of, I guess, grew my thought process behind that.
Ray: So you didn’t get too many of these “have you guys lost your mind” comments from your family?
Brock: Oh, we did. My small group actually, in particular.
Ray: They say, “What are you doing?”
Brock: That’s right. It’s like, a donut shop? What, are you crazy?
Ray: Do they come by?
Brock: Oh yeah, actually, they’ve hosted a Bible study there every Friday morning since we opened.
Ray: And I’m glad you said that because that’s really where I wanted to go next in our conversation. God’s doing some amazing things there in your location, right? Perhaps when you first got the idea and started to launch this thing, you thought, okay, we’re gonna build a business, and we’re gonna make donuts and sell donuts and feed people. But what else is God doing at the location itself?
Brock: We try to be very intentional on who we hire, you know, to make sure that they’re a great attitude and a smiling face. Like I said, people, sometimes people come in who are consoling themselves with something sweet. You want to be a minister to that person. You want to make sure they leave feeling good and uplifted hopefully. So we have either praise and worship or some type of Christian music playing all the time, we offer free Wi-Fi, we have a lounge section, we have a bookshelf they can donate to or just take from, to hopefully encourage them to come and stay and hang out. We do a special late night on Friday and Saturday where we give away cheap donuts. So we get a lot of kids, college, high school kids coming in and just hanging out, which is what we want to see. We have games there they can play. So just something to encourage them to come and listen and be a part of the atmosphere. And we just pray the Holy Spirit works on them while they’re there.
Ray: Yeah. Where do you see this going? What’s it look like? I know God’s in control, right? We’re just going to try to obey Him day by day. But in your mind, and your dream, and your vision, where do you guys see this going?
Brock: We do envision other locations, probably not in Birmingham. I think our strategy with the food trucks gets us in Birmingham where we want to go. So another city, another location that supports the store and a donut truck, and just kind of spreading slowly as God kind of opens the doors for us to do that.
Ray: The name, Heavenly Donut Company, tell us about that.
Brock: My wife came up with that. We were trying to come up with a name and didn’t really know what to call it. And when she said that, Heavenly Donut Company, she’s like, you know, that way, it kind of helps us keep an eternal perspective on things. that we’re not just about making money or selling donuts like it’s the people that come in. We’re not Heavenly Donuts, which is what a lot of people call, we’re not Donuts. We’re Heavenly Donut Company; we’re a company of people who are looking to impact our community.
Ray: I love it. And I asked you this before we started recording the interview, but I’m going to go ahead and ask it again. Four years in, would you do it again?
Brock: Yes, absolutely.
Ray: You don’t hesitate?
Brock: No, no, like I said, more work. So there’s definitely been times where I may have hesitated. I’ve discovered that I love the process of running a business and trying to sort out the problems and trying to figure out how I can get better and impact people better, and so I really enjoy it.
Ray: That’s fantastic, folks. This is Ray Hilbert at Bottom Line Faith, and we are in Birmingham, Alabama. We are speaking with Brock Beiersdorfer, the owner of The Heavenly Donut Company, and it’s an exciting story. We love focusing on small business owners and entrepreneurs and learning what makes them tick, what makes them work, the dreams they have, the struggles, the challenges, and all those things. And we’re hoping that this is a great opportunity for you to be encouraged and to learn as well. So Brock, let’s talk a little bit about some of those lessons learn, right? So you’re four years in, you’ve already shared, hey, this was a lot more work than I might have thought it would be. But what’s been the biggest lesson you’ve learned, and how has your faith kind of helped shape that lesson?
Brock: One of the biggest lessons I’ve learned I guess is just working hard, I’m the owner, but I can’t say that’s not my job, or I don’t want to do that, or you know, you do that because that’s a dirty job, kind of thing. I think everybody that works with us would say that I’m the hardest worker there. I don’t walk in the store usually and just sit down somewhere and relax, you know, if the toilet needs cleaning, if the bathroom needs cleaning, if I work 35 hours in a row, then I work 35 hours in a row, just to get the job done, because it has to be done. And that hasn’t always been the case. God’s really grown me in that. When I was self-employed, I could kind of sit back and relax some and not really be a good steward of the time and resources God’s given us. But as we’ve opened this business, God has really helped me focus on being a good steward, and using my time wisely, not just to work hard, but to pour into people.
Ray: And that’s really what it’s all about. That’s the name you talked about. We’re building into people here, not just making donuts, we really are a kingdom-minded business. And I love that about the approach here. So what would be biblical principles that you’ve tried to instill, some best practices in how you’re running and building your company?
Brock: I think the biggest is to love others. At the bottom line, that’s why we exist. That’s our purpose is to love others. So whether, obviously our customers but also the vendors we do business with, and especially our employees. I’ve realized my mission field is not the customers; my mission field is my employees. And then the customers, hopefully, are my employees’ mission field. To pour into my employees so that when they leave us, they just don’t check off, hey, that’s on my resume. I’ve worked at this place, but hopefully, they’ve learned something, they’ve gained something of value or learned something important while working with us.
Ray: My guess is that one of your greatest challenges as a small business owner, like so many small businesses, finding good quality, reliable employees. As you said, you’ve got cooks making products all night, overnight, those sorts of things. How have you discovered is the best way to identify a good quality person who’s a fit for what you’re trying to do?
Brock: It’s always a struggle to try to find people, even people who think that they can do the job sometimes come in and can’t. Overnight is a tough shift sometimes, and it can be long hours. We do the interview, we ask the questions, try to get a good dialogue with them, but then we also, especially our full-time people will bring them in to work overnight a couple of shifts to make sure they know who they’re working with, what kind of job they’re going to be doing, what’s expected of them. And we’ve had a lot of people say no after that.
Ray: Yeah, rather have a no now than, you know, two weeks in and you’re counting on them, right? That’s really good.
Brock: That’s right.
Ray: And so on a daily basis, we talked a little bit offline about what a typical day looks like for you. But you’re a new father.
Brock: That’s right.
Ray: And your baby is how old?
Brock: Four months.
Ray: So what changes are you noticing in your own approach, you know, in trying to be that husband, be that father, be that business owner, how are you working to kind of integrate all that and make sure they’re all getting proper attention? What’s that look like for you?
Brock: That kind of work-life balance has always been a struggle, and really, quiet time has kind of helped with that, just helped me prioritize. But we hired some managers to kind of take some of the burden off of me. I mean, I still wake up early, 4:45 or so, and get to work by 6, but I’m usually home by 3:30, 4:00 in the afternoon so that I can spend time with my son and my wife and make sure she gets some time, since she’s been with them all day. And then we have the rest of the night to kind of spend some time together and do things like that. And then our store’s closed every Monday; that’s kind of our day of rest that we have. So that allows us to make plans and date or, you know, things like that.
Ray: That’s terrific. So do you also have some other business leaders or owners or peers that you talk with, you meet with, you get advice from, hold you accountable, any of the areas of your life?
Brock: I’m actually part of a small group this semester, that is business owners really talking about finances and purpose, and, you know, how we’re managing and being stewards of what God gives us. But we also have a couple of mentors we’ve had since the very beginning: a business mentor that kind of helps us. He’s been involved in some 60 or 70 businesses throughout his lifetime, and can kind of pour into us about, Hey, I know you’re struggling, here’s what I did. And we also have a donut mentor, as I mentioned before, who kind of helped us, look, this is what you’re going to find when you do it this way, and here’s what I learned doing it that way. And I’m really always looking for more mentors in specific areas that I’m struggling with, or who I know have been through what I’m going through, just to kind of help me.
Ray: Yeah, really critical what we’ve discovered. And we know this is, you know, isolation is the killer. The way I describe it is, even in my own prayer life, sometimes, I don’t know if what I’m hearing is from the Lord Himself or indigestion, maybe a bad donut, right? Whatever the case may be. And so we really need those other experienced godly peers in our life, to encourage us, as you said, mentor us, hold us accountable. I’m really glad that you’re taken advantage of that, and you see the wisdom in that. So, Brock, it’s fun to hear stories of how businesses get started. It’s always encouraging to hear that, hey, I’m not alone in my struggles and those kinds of things. So I’m sure right now there’s a listener to the program, and they’ve been listening, and they kind of found it intriguing how this whole thing started. But let’s now say that you’re the mentor and someone’s come to you and said, okay, Brock, what’s some advice that you would give me on starting my company or taking it from an idea to realization? What would be the kind of advice that you would give to another person, especially a Christ-follower in business?
Brock: One of the things is obviously prayer guiding you through things. But if you really feel like God is directing in this direction, and you’re getting confirmation from other people, don’t be afraid to jump in. I feel like once we committed to follow God’s vision, then he started opening the doors. The place that we’re at right now the rent, the lease that we got, the mentors that came into our lives, the prices we got on equipment and things like that just felt like once we committed and made that leap, then he started opening doors and showing us really how good he is, which propelled us through the bad times, you know, the struggles and things like that, that we can go back and remember, we did this, we got this, God got us through this, he put us on this path. So once you really have prayed through it, and you believe that this is the direction God wants you to go, don’t be afraid to jump. If God’s leading you that direction, he’ll provide for you as you go.
Ray: That’s really great. In fact, recently, we interviewed someone whose name I know you know, Jeremiah Castille, former great Alabama Crimson Tide defensive back, six years in the NFL, but also currently the chaplain for the Alabama Crimson Tide football team. And in our interview with him he said that the most critical thing that a follower of Christ can do, and particularly one in leadership and in business, is make a decision, you know, and hold to that because the point leading up to that that is always where the doubt is and the worry. But once you’ve made the decision, now some clarity can come into place, and it sounds like that that’s pretty important from your point of view, right?
Brock: It is, yeah. We meet on a weekly basis with our leadership team just to do that, so we can all kind of get the minds together and talk about the issues that are coming up and make a decision, and then once that decision is made, okay, what steps do we need to take to implement it?
Ray: You may or may not be familiar with a great author, Patrick Lencioni, several books, Five Dysfunctions of a Team, Three Kinds of a Miserable Job, and so on and so forth. And in his book The Advantage, which is really talking about building healthy culture, healthy, productive companies, he says a couple of things. He says, first of all, culture eats strategy for lunch. That’s all about having the right kind of people who are fit for your company, who have the same vision, the same values, and those kinds of things. But the other thing he talks about in that book, which is very much in line with what we’re describing right now, is one of the things that causes the biggest problems in businesses are the owners and the leadership teams waiting for the perfect decision. Do we have all the facts and all the details? And in today’s world, things change so fast that if you wait till you have all the information, you’ll never make a decision.
Ray: So he kind of says, if you can feel you’ve got about 80% of what you need to make a decision, make it and move on, and then execute upon it. And it sounds to me like you’re really dedicated in that as well. We are speaking with Brock Beiersdorfer. He and his wife Kimberly started The Heavenly Donut Company in Birmingham, Alabama. And it’s crazy. We’re getting near the end of our interview already. But I’m getting really hungry, Brock. I’m hoping that I can get a donut before the end of the day. But I’m enjoying this conversation. And so Brock, if you had to do one thing over again, as you’ve got to this point in your entrepreneurial journey, what would you do different?
Brock: I guess I got so caught up at the beginning with just running things, the day to day, and trying to make sure everything, again, was perfect, you know, everything running smoothly and perfect that I spent too much time before I really nailed down my systems that were in place and processes and how am I going to treat employees? And how am I going to reward them? And how am I going to, just thinking ahead of what is this going to look like? So at the beginning, I had plenty of free time because everything was full staffed, you know, and I kind of wasted that time. When I could have been really working on the business, I enjoyed working in the business because it was new, when I could have spent that time working on the business and really getting things in place for the long term.
Ray: Wow, I think that’s really great wisdom. So I hope somebody can take that in their own personal application that while building the business, and particularly in the early days, it is critical to be thinking longer term about some of those big-picture items, as Brock has described. Working on the business, some processes and systems, and how am I going to scale, and how am I going to replicate; how am I going to treat my customers and employees in process, in definition, in writing, and those kind of things so that we can train new people and replicate it. And that’s really good stuff. It is hard to believe this. But we are getting near the end of this program and so Brock, there’s one last question I’d really love to just hear a little bit about. And that’s what I love to call our 4:23 question. If you are a first-time listener to the program, this is the question I ask every guest; it’s the one question I ask without failing, based out of Proverbs 4:23.
And these are the words of Solomon who wrote, “Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.” And so Brock, as we were talking about off-air, there are some biblical scholars who believe that these are some of the final words that Solomon may have penned, that he may have written. And of course, the Bible describes Solomon as the richest, wisest man who ever lived to that point in history, probably still the wisest man ever. Certainly, he’s given us Proverbs, and he’s given us much of Ecclesiastes, all these great pearls of wisdom, principles for life, and worshiping God, and living with character and integrity. If these were, in fact, some of his last words that he penned, it’s pretty powerful, because it’s almost as if he was gathering his loved ones and his friends around him and saying, “Look, I know I’ve given you all this wisdom; I’ve given you all this way of living your life.
But I want you to remember this one thing: above all else, more than this, more than that, above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.” And so Brock, you’re still a young guy, four years into marriage, new baby, less than a year old. But we don’t know how much time you’ve got, right? None of us know how much time we have on Earth. So let’s just move the clock forward, and let’s say you have a chance to gather your family, your friends, your loved ones, and you can script your final words to them. Your big advice, your big idea. So I want you to fill in the blank, Brock, above all else…
Brock: I don’t know that I could say it any better than Solomon: guard your heart. There’s so many, especially when running a business, there’s so many opportunities to be pulled away or distracted from God’s word and God’s path. The time demands of running a business that it’s easy to kind of get off track or set aside quiet time for a little while and work too much and not pay attention to your spouse or your children or stay involved in church and have a ministry. And so above all else, to me, is to maintain quiet time in prayer, and that will keep you humble, keep you wise, keep you headed in the right direction, remind you that you need to take your wife out on a date, or that you need to spend time with your kid, or that your business isn’t everything, you know, that there’s a ministry behind it, that there’s people behind it, that whatever you’re needing, you know God knows what you need, sometimes more than you do or before you do. And then the quiet time really keeps you focused so regardless of the demands and I’ve been through plenty of them, that the times in my life where I let work suck me away from church and quiet time really has been more detrimental to my mental state, my emotional state, my marriage, my spiritual life. So above all else, really guard your heart, keep your fellowship with God on a daily basis.
Ray: I love the fact that you have the wisdom to agree with the wisest man ever. That’s amazing, right? Guard your heart, and you’re spot on with that. I know that, man, you’re going and going today, big busy day. But you took the time to come and record this. Why would you do that? Why would you take 30 minutes, 40 minutes out of your business day to come and record this interview?
Brock: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It’s an honor. Yeah, somebody asked me before, do you really have time to go do that? You know, we’ve got a lot of stuff going on. My thought is I don’t have time not to, you know. This is the reason that we got into business was to impact our community and to be a positive influence on people. And so if we pass up the opportunity to do that once, then you just kind of lead yourself into passing it up every time and then at the end of my life, I don’t want God to say, I opened 100 doors, and you only walked through two of them, you know. To be an influence and have a positive impact, you said that’s what you wanted to do, but then you didn’t follow through with it.
Ray: I appreciate that. And in fact, recently, I interviewed a very wealthy Christ follower. And he said he gets asked a lot from young business owners, you know, about giving, about tithing and those sorts of things. And he says, “Look, if you don’t give now when you don’t have an abundance of extra cash, you are not going to give when you have an excess cash in the millions.” He said, “Establish those patterns and behaviors now and disciplines now.” And that’s what I just heard is that you don’t have a lot of extra time right now. But you’re mindful of why you got into business. The purpose is to influence, is to be honoring Christ in your business.
So that’s why you took the time to do it today to come on the interview. I’m very grateful and thankful. And I will say this, I believe in my heart, and I really mean this. Somebody today has been encouraged. They’ve got a new business; they’ve been struggling to find time for it all, or no that you ever find time for it all. They’ve been wondering you know, they’ve had an idea and then thinking, should I start that business? Just hearing the story of the spark of how your business idea became a reality I think is going to encourage somebody and just helping people understand that they’re not alone is huge. So I really God’s going to redeem the time that we’ve had to record this interview, and I just tell him how much I appreciate it. Well, folks, we have been listening and talking with Brock Beiersdorfer. He and his wife Kimberly founded The Heavenly Donut Company in Birmingham, Alabama. And I have been encouraged, and I’ve been inspired by our conversation today if you are ever in Birmingham, stop by and do you have a website, by the way?
Brock: We do: theheavenlydonutco.com. We’re also on Facebook, all the social media, all that kind of stuff.
Ray: Alright. Maybe we can coerce you into shipping a dozen donuts up our way in Indiana. Anyway, folks, It has been a pleasure having Brock on the show today. Check us out at bottomlinefaith.org and check out the ministry of Truth At Work at truthatwork.org. Until next time, God bless. Be faithful in your leadership in the marketplace. We’ll see you soon at Bottom Line Faith.