Today’s show features Steve Casbon, business builder, speaker, and Managing Partner for Ambassador Development Group.
In 2001, he founded Concierge of Indianapolis, a corporate hospitality company and also served as National Director of Field Ministry for CBMC, a national marketplace ministry. He is a sought-after marketplace speaker and business thought leader.
Full transcript:
Ray: Hello everyone. This is Ray Hilbert and I am your host here at Bottom Line Faith. This is the program where we love to bridge that gap between faith and business and leadership in the marketplace. So let’s get right into today’s program. I am really excited we have in studio, although he doesn’t live here in Indianapolis, we are welcoming Steve Casbon, who is the managing partner of Ambassador Development Group. Steve lives in Holly Springs, North Carolina, which is a suburb of Raleigh and his company, Ambassador Development Group is headquartered in Sugarland, Texas. Steve, thanks so much for coming and being a part of Bottom Line Faith today.
Steve: Thank you, Ray. It is a blessing and a privilege to be with you today.
Ray: Thank you. Well, I was so excited to have this conversation. Steve and I have known each other from years past and ministry involvement and so forth. And so when I learned that you had agreed to come onto the show, and then more exciting to me was that you’re going to come in studio, we could sit across the table eye to eye. Are you ready to get started, cause I sure am?
Steve: I am, absolutely. Let’s get going.
Ray: All right. Well we’re going to talk about faith. We’re going to talk about excellence in business and how God uses it in the marketplace. And before we get into all of that, why don’t you tell us just a little bit about Ambassador Development Group. Who you guys are, what you’re doing, and what it is that God is calling you to do in the marketplace.
Steve: Great. And I will just give a quick snippet on how we started because that has a lot to do with where we are. But kind of I believe the Lord through prayer gave me an idea of buying and building kingdom companies. And at the time I didn’t really know what that looks like, but that was in 2014 in a coaching session, kind of get coached on a wild idea, and I got coached on that idea. And so it’s turned into a private equity investment firm where God has brought some amazing gifted, talented individuals around me. I knew very clearly at the time I began to pray about this. This wasn’t something I was going to do by myself, that the only way this could happen is if God would bring the right team around me. And so that’s how we started.
So we are a private equity investment firm that invest in companies to buy and build what we say kingdom class companies in our model is to operate a portfolio of companies that honor God and impact people. That’s our mission statement. Our vision is to radically impact the lives of those that we serve. So if we do effectively what we set out to do, we will radically impact the lives of those we serve. And we realize the greatest impact we could have on anyone’s life is when they receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior. However, we believe loving and serving people in the fruit of the Spirit and loving people and sharing the love of Christ and hitting people in our customers and our employees with the fruit of the Holy Spirit is a great bridge builder and a great way to reach and serve people. And so anyway, that’s what we’re all about.
Ray: Well, there’s a lot that we’re going to unpack behind that. You know, two or three things that, as you were talking that came to mind, you use this phrase Kingdom company. Can we just park there for a moment? Let’s talk about when you use that phrase kingdom company, what exactly does that describe?
Steve: Great question. And I think obviously as we look into the Bible and we’ve really believed that God has given us a directive on how to run our business, not just that business is a ministry, but how we do things. And again, I mentioned Galatians 5:22, the fruit of the Spirit and we look at Colossians 3:23, and everything that we do, do it as if doing it unto the Lord. And so that’s what we say a Kingdom company is. We’ve designed something called building Kingdom class companies. And if you go to our website and hit it, go to our blog from our website, We have a presentation on there called building Kingdom class companies. But just to give you a picture of what that looks like, when the Queen of Sheba is standing before Solomon, she, it says in the Word that what she saw, she was left without breath. That what she saw in Solomon’s kingdom took her breath away and the word is ruach. And that’s kind of when we talk about Kingdom class in a company and a Kingdom company, we don’t believe just a Ritz Carlton gives Kingdom class service. We have a hydraulics company, we can give Kingdom class service, we can do Kingdom class wherever we go. It’s really delivering above and beyond what’s expected. What would people need to see in your business to take their breath away? What would people need to see in our business that would take their breath away? Is it the way that they’re treated? Is it the way that our response time, is it the quality of our service or our product? That’s when we think about Kingdom companies and when we say Kingdom class companies, right? That just provides a little bit of a glimpse or a picture of what we’re talking about there.
Ray: Okay. So, but I remember a few years ago, Dan Cathy, President, CEO of Chick-fil-A talking about in Matthew when he talked about going the extra mile and they looked at companies in their field, restaurants, right? Fast food if you will. And then upper class restaurants and they said, okay, the ticket price at Chick-fil-A was about $6 and 25 cents at the time, the average transaction, $6 and 25 cents and he said, we then went out and looked at others in the restaurant, in the service industry, what was the experience at a $25 price point? And he came back and they listed all those things and things like flowers on the table and someone who is going around the facility for refreshing beverages and so forth. And he said, we went the extra mile. And so that’s part of what we experience at Chick-fil-A, right, is at a $6 probably a little more than that now, $6 price point have a $25 experience. Is that somewhat what you’re talking about and how does that apply for those who are listening to our program?
Steve: Yeah. Right. I think that is a wonderful analogy and I think any one of us can do the same thing in our business, whatever your business is and bring it to your team because again, we are huge believers that there’s one body and many members and we belong to one another. We all have gifts to bring to the table. So it would take this to your team and ask what would our business need to do to deliver that next level of experience in whatever it is, whether you’re serving chicken sandwiches or whatever your product or service, compare yourself to the optimal ideal competitor and you can even design them if they don’t exist and say, what would we need to do to get there? What are some things that we need to do to deliver above and beyond what’s expected to our customers or even internally to our employees because obviously our team members are the first line of people that we serve because the greater the retention rate of our employees, the greater retention rate of our customers. And so our first team that we serve is internally and then we go external. So I would suggest that we bring that question out to our teams and ask them that what are those things that we need to do? And obviously these are not the one and done. We do that once and it’s an exercise, but we always do that. What are some of them? Challenge ourselves to deliver that over and over and over better and better and better. So great question.
Ray: I think it’s then a great segue to talk a little bit about the types of companies and the traits and characteristics that you and your firm at Ambassador Development Group, what you’re looking for. You’re traveling around the country, you’re talking to business owners and leaders in conferences and workshops and one on ones and so forth. And so as you’re having that conversation with them, Steve, give me some specifics of what you look for inside of a business that tells you that this is a company that’s doing it in a Kingdom class sort of way more than just, you know, Bible verses on the website or on the business card and that may or may not exist, but what are some of the specifics you’re looking for?
Steve: Okay, that is a great question. So we use a couple of assessment tools. We use the CPI index, which we’re a big fan of; it’s an assessment tool to really look in people’s giftings and what their role looks like compared to what they’ve been wired to do. And we do a culture index. We work with a company where we’ll come in and actually do a culture index on a company. And some companies have a culture and some don’t. So we get a baseline. But the bottom line is how people love and serve one another. You can get a good, subjective analysis when you go in and just see how things flow at a company. And obviously you can’t always see conflict or some things underlying on your first visit there, but you can kind of get a pretty good feel of how things go and how people work together.
That’s ideal. Is we’re looking for companies that have already established a pretty good culture. They love and serve one another pretty well because we found company business plans really don’t make money, but people do. And so finding a good company, part of, I would say the definition of a good company so to speak, is not just their P and L’s, but it’s the quality of their people in the hearts of their people. You mentioned Chick-fil-A. As you look at their book, The Secret: What Great Leaders Know and Do by Ken Blanchard and Mark Miller, they talk about their serve model and they look for character in the people as much or more so, and value that over the skills. And so we do the same. Is you have to have the right people with the right hearts to be able to really run a Kingdom company. And they may or may not have the same personal relationship with Jesus Christ that I do, but do they have the heart to serve and do they fit into the culture that we’d like to have established or buy into our case in a company.
Ray: So as you’re traveling around the country, Steve, what’s the mindset or what are some of the challenges that you’re hearing from these individuals who are, you know, maybe they’re founders, maybe they’re looking to transition the business. Just talk to us a little bit and understanding who our audience here is at Bottom Line Faith. What are some of the challenges that you’re running across?
Steve: You mentioned a business owner or let’s say there’s a lot of baby boomers transitioning out of their business now in the next 10 to 15 years. And they’re thinking about who do I sell to? They don’t have an identified successor and there’s an estimated as many as 60% of current business owners looking to exit don’t have an identified succession plan or successor. And what are they looking for? Are they looking for the highest bitter to buy their business and to take as much money out of that business? And then for good causes, maybe put it into ministry or I would suggest that a Christian business owner has far more to consider when exiting his business than selling to the highest bidder. And just to carry that out a little bit, what we need, obviously that’s a platform as I believe that God’s given us a platform, whatever size that is, whether we have five employees or 5,000, whatever that number is, we all have a platform.
We’re all a steward of the platform that God gives us. And that ministry effectively ends. If you sell to someone that is not going to carry on your values. And in, in our case, we see business as a ministry, that doesn’t have that mindset. You can pretty much rest assured that the intentionality of that business and the intentionality of that ministry ends. Now, sure you might have discipled or mentored some of your employees and they’re going to disciple and share Christ with others, but effectively that that platform of influence towards being a missional company will end if you sell to the wrong people. So I would suggest that that business owner really needs to prayerfully consider who he sells to and who he transitions that leadership and the ownership of that next generation to. Because we’ve got a workshop called the Insured Exit: Exiting Your Business Without Ending Your Kingdom Impact. And that addresses all of those things.
Ray: Thank you, Steve. Because I think so many of us need to be reminded that this is our mission field. So let’s talk to that audience just for a moment. But what mistakes or what warning signs or what advice would you have for that business owner who’s listening to this conversation and they’re thinking, you know, maybe in the next two, three, five years, I might want to transition my business. I might want to sell my business or I’ve got an upcoming next generation, you know, family members, current employees, whatever. What are some of the mistakes or warning signs that you would caution them on or advise them on right now?
Steve: Well that is a a great question, and that is deep. A lot of places we could go with that, but just some kind of things. Top of mind would be one to bring some trusted advisors around them that are going to not tell you what you want to hear but what you need to hear. Some people that are into God’s word and that will give you objective, Biblical counsel on what your options are with your business.
Ray: Let me stop you just for a second. What kind of counselors? Like what kind of expertise, what are you looking for them spiritually? What are you looking for in those counselors in terms of their expertise? Like tangible skillsets?
Steve: Well, I would probably pick very Bible-centered guys, really grounded in the Word. A Christian advisory team, and even might put together a separate team, you know, through Truth At Work and other organizations. There’s a lot of folks that fit that category, but those are the types of people that I would want to surround myself with, especially on this topic. If you don’t have a group like that now, you might consider being part of one. But I would encourage you to specifically pray about who those two or three or four counselors might be even to help you just with this idea of transitioning out of your business. This is a big deal. If you’re a business owner, that you have a platform of ministry that you’ve been at for 10, 20, 30 years, you’ve built a business that’s a platform and what happens with it, the continuity and your legacy is wrapped up, a lot of your legacy.
If you’re a small business owner, wrapped up in your small market business, much of your net worth is tied up there. And what happens afterwards? That’s your legacy. It’s really important in my view is what happens to that business and how you transition out of that. So getting a team of really godly counselors, people that are, that know God’s Word that will pray, and we pray be led by the Lord to give you counsel through God’s Word and not necessarily just give their opinion. So I think it’s really important to get spiritual counsel from a biblical perspective.
Ray: Absolutely. Very important. And what’d you get? Like accountants, attorneys, maybe someone who has successfully transitioned and maybe somebody who it didn’t go so well. I’m just trying to help our audience shape in their mind the picture of who are these counselors and what am I going to be looking for?
Steve: Yeah, that’s great. And those are good suggestions. Accountant attorneys. There’s mergers and acquisitions consultants. I have a good friend in the Raleigh area and we don’t really do a lot of business together, but we talk a lot together and he and I pray we can both help each other. I know it helps me a lot. His perspective is unique because he’s walked through hundreds of transactions with people. So it would be good to find some counselors that have helped people successfully do this before. And then you and I both know there are people in marketplace ministries that have been the same, that have counseled people through those transitions in their life and had the difficult decisions and help them through difficult situations in their company. Those are all people that I would recommend that you seek out and pray about. I think as you commit those things to prayer and God’s really pretty good about answering things like that and bringing people around you cause you really committed to prayer, that might be able to help you through that.
Ray: Fantastic. And Steve, would you mind just one more time giving us a website where folks can learn more about your company?
Steve: Sure. You can go to ADG
Ray: Fantastic. Well great. So we’ve covered a lot of ground so far, but as you look back over the course of your business career, what’s the hardest decision you ever had to make, or maybe that you saw someone else make and what was the role that faith played in that very difficult decision?
Steve: Yeah, that’s a great question. So as I look back over my career, I have had many, many years of doing things my way and I’m not proud of those times, but I will tell you that as I look back, that’s a lonely road when you go through business and do things on your own. Even when I, even as a Christian, I had a business that I had to make some really difficult decisions with and I was trying to solve all the problems myself, and I did not adequately seek God’s counsel on it. And I did not seek the counsel of many. And who knows if that situation could have turned out differently. But I knew when I really had the vision of this business, Ambassador Development Group, it was very, very clear to me that there’s one body and there’s many members, and we all belong to one another. And certainly I knew that idea of not have everything required to start a private equity investment firm. So I prayed, God, are you, is this really where you want me to go? But he brought an incredibly gifted, talented team around me and had it not been for my prior experience of really going through some challenging times in business and realized that doing it by myself caused a great deal of pain. And I think thankfully, I caught some of that and I’m still a student and work in progress, but I have caught some of the things that God wanted me to learn, but I wouldn’t even consider doing this business by myself.
Now, God’s brought such great team and talent around me and I value them and I value the uniqueness that they bring to the table. And yeah, we have disagreements. My partner and I don’t see eye to eye on everything, but I value his perspective. And the other gifted teammates around me is that we all have different gifts. And that’s the thing I think if we really realize we’ve been designed, and it’s so amazing to think about, but look around, none of us look alike. We’re all God’s unique design. So therefore we don’t all have the same spiritual gifts. We don’t have the same business gifts, we don’t have the same personalities. And that’s a great thing. I think at times, we all go through these periods of time as well. If everybody just thought like me, we’d all be better off.
And that is so far from the truth is we need people to challenge us. We need people to make us better. We need people to see things that we don’t see. And so that goes back to a huge mistake that I made with one of the businesses that I had, but it has really given me a forward look at how I’m supposed to do it from now on is, and I still make mistakes. And I still rely on my own thinking and I still don’t always, you know, value the counsel of many like I need to. But it’s so part of what we are at ADG now in the companies that we serve. It’s when we do leadership development, we are not trying to make the one leader, we are working in teams, we’re developing people, we’re developing their skills, cause we believe in the gifts of many. We believe that God’s given gifts to the entire team. And it doesn’t matter what your role or your title is, you still have something to offer.
Ray: Yeah. And so going back to that situation that you’re describing, when you were kind of making the decisions on your own, was that an issue where you just didn’t know where to turn for help, or you had some relationships that you could have turned to and you just chose to maybe like, I don’t know, pride or what was it that was behind that part of your journey?
Steve: It was probably pride. It was fear because I did have plenty of people around me at that time that I could have turned to. But I felt that I had to figure it out. I felt an obligation and so it’s really challenged as I look back. It was foolish, but sure, it was pride and I think it was expectations. I felt that people had expectations of where I was and how I was running that company. And I would have let them down if I told them what was really going on, but yet they would have all been very thankful and willing to help me out.
Ray: Yeah. And I think Satan is so crafty at this shame factor, right? It’s like causing us to feel shame that we don’t have the answers when we think we should. And so then we’re afraid to go ask for help cause I’ll be too embarrassed and I’ll lose trust. And I mean, that’s just an amazing thing. So what I’d like to ask you to do is let’s consider success here at Bottom Line Faith as if we can just encourage one of our listeners. We have thousands of them. But if we could just encourage one listener to take that next step of obedience to move one step closer to who and what God is calling them to be as a leader in business and in the marketplace. So let’s just for a moment, consider that there’s somebody listening right now who they feel all alone, they’ve got a big decision, they’ve got a big problem, a big challenge, and they’ve got the weight of the world on their shoulders. Now they’ve got a relationship with the Lord. And I don’t mean to discount that, but what advice or encouragement would you give to that one person who right now is listening to this and they’re feeling all alone?
Steve: Wow, that is a great question. And I think that is probably the single greatest element that the enemy uses against a Christian businessman is isolation. So here’s what I would say. I would say to find yourself a mentor, at least one, and pray about it and find yourself a person that you know, a person that you trust, a person that you know is grounded in the Word and a person that you know has no vantage point in giving you bad counsel. Find somebody that will give you objective, Biblical counsel, and at least one. But there’s wisdom in the counsel of many. And I really believe the single greatest strength that us as believers have is when we get people around us that care about us in a genuine Christ-loving kind of manner. And we get people around us that care for us and will give us objective counsel to do it God’s way.
And sometimes that’s going to really disagree. That’s going to disagree with what you believe. And that’s okay. If we really want to do it God’s way, we’ll listen to wise counsel. So there’s wisdom in the counsel of many. Stop being alone right now. Pray about it. God will honor that prayer. I know it because it’s you really committed to the Lord. He tells us throughout Scripture the value of loving one another, serving one another. Brotherly love. There’s wisdom in the counsel of many. And yes, we do need to abide in him and he in us and we will bear fruit in our life, but we need others around us to walk through this journey. There’s opposition here on earth and I know y’all have all felt it. And so that’s what I would suggest and it’s more than a strong suggestion. I would say that’s going to be a critical to your success as a businessman and as a Christian, biblical based leader in the marketplace.
Ray: I love that. And I’m going to maybe just want to throw one or two additional comments on that cause I see this a lot. Like you, I get a chance to talk with hundreds of Christ followers who are business owners and entrepreneurs and so forth. And listen, there is no shame. There is nothing to be embarrassed about not having the answers about filling stock, about feeling like you don’t know which way to turn. Listen, if you started a business, or if you’re running a business, you already understand risk. You already understand there are unknowns around every corner. And so let me just encourage you, if you’re feeling isolated right now, if you’re feeling discouraged, take the risk. Steve talked about finding a mentor, reach out, ask some people, look, I’m going through this. Would you meet with me? Would you encourage me? Would you pray with me? Take that risk because I assure you God has help waiting for you. And he’s got someone or some group ready for you. But you’ve got to take that step and take the risks. You understand that as a business leader. So I think Steve, you’ve given us great, great insight. I agree with you. I believe it’s the number one challenge for Christians in businesses: isolation. The devil is as a roaring lion seeking whom he can destroy and devour. And the lion always goes after the one that is isolated. And so you just need to be reminded of that. So I want you to go back and act as though you’re sitting across the table from the 20 year old Steve, you’re not 20 anymore. So what advice would you give the 20 year old Steve about life, about business leadership? What would you say?
Steve: Yep, that is a great question and that probably falls back on our last topic, is to find some people that you look up to that have operated your business in a godly manner the way you would like to have it done and seek those kinds of people out. And I unfortunately at 20 years old, I did not have a relationship with the Lord, and I did seek out the counsel of some people that were successful and I learned a lot from them, but I didn’t not have the biblical side of things. So I would look back and say, find some people like that. Keep people like that around you and give them a voice in your life at 20 years old is, we all can think back to that. I was pretty headstrong. So to be able to let go the pride at age 20 or 25 and 30, and again it still gets in the way. But let go of that and let God speak to you through the counsel of others. And so I still fall back to that. That would still be the greatest item that can help us avoid so many landmines.
It won’t help us to avoid obstacles, but it might help us to avoid a landmine that could explode when we bring wise counsel around. So that would still be where I’d go back to is advising myself or anyone else that age to, you know, find some successful people that really, really are doing it well, God’s way and befriend those people and keep people like that in your life.
Ray: Absolutely. And as you look back over the course of your career and business and so forth, what’s the best advice you can ever recall someone giving you? How does that impact you today?
Steve: And as I look back, I’m going to have to, I have a lot of examples of that, but I think I’m going to fall back at the time. So when I first became a Christian. I thought everybody ought to be a pastor or missionary. Thought everybody ought to be a pastor or a missionary. I started reading the Bible for the first time; I was 31 years old. Nothing else really matters. When you start reading the Bible and you hear about God has a plan for your life and time here on earth is such a short time compared to eternity and yet, and I thought, really, you know, a business guy chasing money… I thought, boy, that’s wrong. But nobody ever taught me that. But I got discipled by a businessman five years into my walk with Christ and I went through this program called Operation Timothy.
And this guy really sat down and taught me what God’s Word, how it applied to my business life and that yes, it was okay. You know, Paul says, do nothing out of selfish ambition and vain conceit. Well, before I knew Christ, I did everything out of selfish ambition and vain conceit. But once I started reading the Bible, I’m thinking, Oh my gosh, the rules changed. How can I win in business and follow Jesus? Jesus is so nice, and he talks about love and kindness and all that. So how? How does that all work together? Well, I had a business guy five years into my walk, teach me about what being an ambassador for Christ was. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, if anyone is in Christ, he’s a new creation. Old things are passed away. Behold, all things become new. 2 Corinthians 5:20 which is the name of our company, Ambassador Development Group, you are therefore Christ’s ambassador.
I understood that as a Christian, as a new man, and with a new life in Christ, that I’m an ambassador for Christ wherever I go. That teaching that gentleman was able to share with me. And for some reason it just opened me up at that time, freed me up to be a businessman. And in the gifts that God’s given me, aren’t just spiritual stuff, right? My ability to communicate with people, my ability to influence people, my ability to sell things, my ability to get people excited about things, those are all gifts from God. Now I happened to misapply those gifts before I knew the Lord. I use that gift of persuasion or influence to manipulate people. Well now I can use it to influence people and respect their decision even if they disagree with me because I loved them. And so I had a businessman teach me that.
So I would say it’s not maybe one piece of advice, but if I could summarize that, let the Word of God guide me as a businessman. And we know that the Bible, there’s an application for every situation in my business that I can pray and seek God’s Word in his Word and get wise counselors around me. But he taught me that the Bible had a lot to say about who I was as a man, as a husband, as a businessman, and certainly as a Christ follower. But those things aren’t separate. Living an integrated life. It’s not living, you know, a segregated life. Where it’s my life as a businessman, my life as a husband. And I think that teaching from a businessman who discipled me, that was probably the single greatest impact I would say in my life as a Christian businessman,
Ray: That is really, really good stuff, Steve, letting the Word of God instruct, letting the Word of God teach and guide and direct how we’re running and leading our business careers. Steve, we have one question we ask every guest, and it’s always the last question. This is what we call our 4:23 question and it’s based out of Proverbs 4:23 were Solomon writes above all else, guard your heart for from it flows all of life. So Steve, as you think forward to the tail end of your time, this side of eternity, and you have an opportunity to gather your family, your friends, your loved ones, those who are most precious to you, and you’re going to pass along one piece of advice, the single most important piece of advice that you could pass along, not only to them, but now to our listening audience. Would you fill in the blank for me above all else?
Steve: Follow God. In Jeremiah 29:11 God says, for I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord. Plans to prosper you and not to harm you all the days of your life. I want my kids. I want anybody that I could share with that God has designed you with a plan and a purpose, and God’s designed me with a plan and a purpose. And if I have people look back on my life, what I would love to have them say about me is there was a man that followed God’s purpose in his life and he’s flawed. He was imperfect, but the focus of his heart was to follow God’s plan for his life. And that would be my wish for my children, my prayer for my sons and prayer for anybody else out there listening.
Ray: Oh, that is fantastic. Steve, I cannot thank you enough for coming on the program today. I look forward to our continued friendship and any closing thoughts or words you’d want to pass along that we haven’t talked about?
Steve: Right. This has been fantastic, and I would just tell you this, I make mistakes every day. I still make bad decisions, but I’ve learned I’m working progress. But I will tell you this, that following God’s plan, seeking the counsel of wise counselors around you and surrounding yourself with a network of people that you can truly trust. That’s the only way to live life and and walking the journey with the Lord through business and life. As a husband, as a business leader, there is no better way to go. It’s given me a joy, a peace that is indescribable. So I would just pray that if you don’t have that, pursue that. And if you do have that, thank the Lord every day and embrace it.
Ray: Great stuff. Thank you for coming by the program today. What a blessing. All right, thank you. Well folks, we’ve been talking with Steve Casbon, the managing partner at Ambassador Development Group. You can check out Steve and his crew, so that wraps up another edition here at Bottom Line Faith. But before we sign off, I want to remind you and encourage you, please go online, give a review for the program. It’s the number one way you can help us in our expansion and God is doing amazing things through the program, and we’ve even got international listeners now and so forth. So we’re really excited about what’s going on there, so you can help us out by providing a review. In the conversation with Steve today, we talked a lot about this issue of isolation and if you’re a Christ follower running or leading a business, the number one way you’re going to get potentially picked off as being an isolation. So we’d like to encourage you to check out our website at Truth At Work. True At Work is the host ministry here at Bottom Line Faith. Click on that tab called Round Tables on the website and inquire about what it might look like for you to get in community with other Christ followers who are leading businesses. So until next time, I am your host Ray Hilbert, here at Bottom Line Faith, encouraging you to faithfully live out your faith in the marketplace everyday. God bless. We’ll see you next time.